Jun 08 2007
Man Battle Stations!
Just when the Immigration Hypochondriacs thought they had slayed the evil beast, news is out today that the beast may return in a few weeks and might actually survive:
Despite the fact that it was primarily Republicans who voted against the maneuver, all the GOP lawmakers who spoke with FOX News were upbeat that the legislation could be revived soon — even within a matter of weeks, with one negotiator noting that last year’s bill was first pulled from the floor by then-Majority Leader Bill Frist before it was brought back up again and passed.
Graham said he talked extensively with Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and is confident the bill will return for senators to take another crack at developing a comprehensive plan to legalize millions of foreigners living unlawfully in the United States.
“I know where the votes are for final passage. … We’re going to get this done,” Graham said, adding that the topic is not going to go away. “All I can say is, if you name a post office, you’re going to be talking about immigration.”
“There are ways we can do this,” Reid said later. “There can be an agreement on the number of amendments. Hopefully we can do that in the next several weeks. We’re very close.”
It is time for the hypochondriacs to man their battle stations! They need to prepare for battle. I suggest they bone up on calling fellow conservatives ‘traitors’ (one of the more ironic and hypocritical weapons they use). Remember to use labels like “RINO” and “alleged conservative” on your so called fellow conservatives. Practice your calls that the world is ending as we know it. Recount how great the current system is and how it will work. Just remind everyone to use those broken down ‘existing laws’ and all will be right again! And remember, at every turn, bash the leader of this country and of your party. GOP – it is time for you to shine again…. Destroy Bush before he can do anything that might just do some good.
Ugh. Someone wake me when these people are done pissing up stream again.
Update: The Anchoress seems to be dealing with victory-bile from those honorable and mature immigration hypochondriacs. If there ever was an example of going over the cliff it is wishing ill will towards the children of a lady as charming as The Anchoress. I am with her – glad to be marginalized from that cesspool.
By the way, I apologize if the subject of my last post was already discussed and mentioned.
CORRECTION:
AJ,
You had a post about the WSJ views on the immigration bill and NOT on the debate challenge.
My apologies for any misunderstandings.
Ah, so now AJ thinks that calling someone a RINO is name calling when we all know that it refers to those politicians who are Republican in name only for the sake of elections. Ron Paul being a prime example. And AJ was just showing us the error of our ways and letting us know that the center is not against immigration while IGNORING that none of us who were against this bill came out against immigration, guest worker visa but against IL-legal immigration and rewarding those who feel they had the right to jump in front of the line and take someone else’s place.
If anything is apparent in AJ’s postings is his absolute joy in the fact that he is of the opinion that the Republican Party is imploding, while he ignores the fact that state GOPs are generating more donations than ever before. One has to wonder if AJ would be so ecstatic over the implosion of one of our national parties if it were the Democratic Party that was doing the imploding.
But AJ is correct about one thing; Americans are not weary of immigration, they are weary of IL-legal immigration and the costs that go along with it. They are weary of allowing someone who plots an attack on American soldiers on American soil to have gotten dozens of traffic violations and were allowed to slip through the system. They are weary of a system that is so broken that illegals who have overstayed their visas can fly planes into tall buildings and kill almost 3,000 Americans with one act.
AJ would have us believe that because he grew up in a political environment that he is so much smarter about the political world than we are. I wonder, does that mean that if AJ grew up in South LA he is now a minority?
Sure Graham says he has the votes. Sure Reid says it can be brought back to life. But in what form? They do not say. I wish Senator Graham all the luck in the world but it is not the votes in the Senate that he now has to worry about. It is the votes in his own home state he now has to worry about.
So while AJ talks about the impending implosing of the GOP, we hear nothing of the Democrats like Clair McCaskill of Missouri, who also voted against the bill because she, and other Democrats, knew this bill was blatantly bad and a better bill can be obtained.
So much for AJ’s theory that this bill was the best we can do. No, AJ, it is not the best we can do for a nation that rebuilt Japan and Germany. It is not the best we can do from a nation that had it’s whole Pacific fleet almost completely destroyed only to come back stronger than ever. It was not the best we could do. But we will do better and hopefully the American worker will not be the loser.
RO5,
To beat most opponents you just need to let them talk, like I do here. The far right is its own worst enemy. And since they are running on blind emotion (you will notice there are exceptions who keep a cool head it is not difficult to get them unstable and to start taking swipes at all those phantoms and ghosts who they fear are ruining America because they think differently.
The immigration hypochondriacs have one consistency – they lash out when challenged. So it is actually better to challenge them so the get all riled up and tell us what they really think about the traitors and RINO and quislings.
I disagree with the far right because, to be blunt, they are incoherent and running on a mob mentality that makes them believe they can and need to attack conservatives. The airwaves are filled with how TRUE Americans saved the day and stopped the bill. How an Un-American effort, led by President Jorge was stopped.
LOL! And all those insults they throw out at the center, who supported the bill and who decide who holds office in this country, have not gone unnoticed. Us Un-American, False Americans, Americans in Name Ony – we vote. And we now have an unadulterated and clear view how the far right feels.
And it is not pretty. So yes, not only is the coalition over, it cannot be repaired with the hotheads in the GOP running things. Tancredo? Toast. He knows he has no hope of winning anything beyond his house seat – if that. He will go the way of JD Hayworth and the other hotheads. And we will be all better for it.
Yes, this is how you play politics. You make the victories pyhrric and the price high so your opponents self destruct. The problem the far right has is it declared war on the traitors – and we took up the fight.
There is nothing worse than getting knocked out at the knees by your supposed allies. They know where zll the weak spots are, all the warts. Allies look past these things to work together. Opponents exploit them.
Smarter? Who knows. But I do know the game of politics. It is not I just grew up in DC, my grandfather was a US Rep. LOL! Pretend this is not happening R05. It makes no difference. It is happening.
AJ, it was not just the far right that opposed this bill. Why that is so hard for you to accept is known only to you. But deny all you will, Americans from all political sectors were against the bulk of this bill.
I never said that the WHOLE bill was bad. There were parts that were good, but the truth of the matter is that a bill designed in the back rooms of the Senate by a privileged few could not survive the light of day. And not once, by anyone who disagreed with you, do I remember them saying that the bill was UN American or the President was UN-American. What we did do was ask legitimate questions that you refused to address simply resorting to name calling a bully tactics.
Your problem is that you labeled everyone who opposed even portions of this bill. You gave it a good fight but now are unwilling to admit that yes, we can do better. Do you have such little faith in the will of the American people to demand what is good for America? It would seem so.
So your grandfather was a U.S. Rep. So what? Am I supposed to be impressed? My grandfather was a head wrangler on the famous King Ranch. Does that mean that I can automatically ride a horse?
Dish the attitude, AJ. And try to work with those of us who want to protect the American worker and our culture, not give it away. Pretent that the American taxpayer is not fed up with unfettered IL-legal immigration and will speak out not only against it but also the rules of the game you are playing and their voices will be heard. But it makes no difference. It is happening.
You said that this bill was the best we could get and it would pass.
You were wrong then, you are wrong now.
I just hope if they resurect this monstrosity of a bill that they don’t try to force us to swallow another ton of manure just to get a few sugar pills again. As for Lindsay Graham. He’s toast. He was booed at the Rep. Convention in SC. The sorry fact is that he probably will insure that SC elects another Fritz Hollings type Democrat to cancel out Jim DeMint’s votes.
Too funny … “immigration hypochondriacs” … “running on blind emotion” … “incoherent … mob mentality” just a few of the parcels AJ has been slinging at those he disagrees with on immigration — which happens to be the vast majority of voters as clearly shown in poll after poll.
Yeah, “hypochondriac” really paints a vivid picture of the right — NOT.
AJ is great on Iraq, on the GWOT, on ESCR, on the NSA “wiretapping”, and a host of other issues, but on immigration he is clueless. He didn’t understand Nov-06 and still does not comprehend that he is in minority on how to proceed with the ILLEGAL immigration issue. And Graham is half as smart as he thinks he is; a real disappointment and arrogant pol who has suddenly turned his senate seat into a competitve race, deservedly so.
AJ
You know I don’t have a real dog in this hunt.
All I have done all along is point out areas that need improvement and areas that really need on the other hand to be watered down that are in the bill.
I least I have done the homework and the analysis from the source documents.
From that it was clear the grand compromise as it started was a jumbled mess.
But for those who seemed to say Gee we got a bill, lets join hands and sing songs as we support this thing, and who could not give a specific why or not even address any feature of the bill, well for that I was a bit frustrated with their lack of involvement in the process, especially with all the faults and blemishes this package has.
I just hoping to see it improved.
But we will have to deal with whatever the final product is.
It has some good points, but from what I am reading, the long term cost is going to be massive and I see many issues with the real world enforceability of a lot of the provisions of the bill.
As far as your baiting Dale and others about if they have got their decoder rings yet, I am not going there.
People come to blogs to hopefully get straight from the hip readings.
Most don’t have time for earn your ring if you get enough points and then get the prize.
Especially as important as this issue is.
What you are doing is out of character for you, and if some are not figuring out your intent, so be it.
But I am sure you are aware the confusion is getting you word of mouthed around the web and it ain’t all pretty.
As far as I can see it, the vast majority of the commentors addressing the bill points and not just quoting general feel good phrases are also trying only to point our issues that need to be worked on.
It almost seems your audience for your actual posts are the would be commentors who are not even here with minor exceptions.
I have seen the hard right extremes, and if you think you have it here, well all I can say is that is your evaluation but it sure isn’t mine.
Having said all that , read the Rasmussen poll analysis I posted at the top of the thread.
I shows broad , across the board rejection. That is going to be a high hurdle to turn around.
Merlin,
repeating the same inane points doesn’t buy anyone brownie points. I noted, on occasion, how silly and fantisful some of the claims were. Like no funding claims. Sorry, repeating chicken little stories ad nasuem is not getting you what you think.
No, we stopped challenging the claims, not because you folks were right. It was because you folks don’t listen and disparage people when you start losing. Forget it. Ain’t going to fly. The far right is screwing things up and going down politically. And we aren’t joining them. There are other alliances with much better potential than another round with the hotheads on the right.
There is no reason for anyone to align with them. I’ll give you a hint. When you like what I say join up. Then we’re cool.
Just an fyi AJ, the Republican Party in Texas has officially come out against this bill. Here is their Friday release:
“Last night we heard the death toll ring for the offensive Ted Kennedy approach to illegal immigration, which attempted to take a broken system and make it worse; may it rest in peace forever. Regaining the trust of the American people by securing our borders, enforcing our laws and ensuring our national sovereignty should be the first priority of Congress. The presumed death of the Kennedy-led effort to abandon the rule of law will allow our leaders to begin reforming our broken immigration system in a way that both protects American citizens and ensures a strong economy. Texans should commend U.S. Senators Kay Bailey Hutchison and John Cornyn for fighting to transform this bad legislation and helping kill it when it couldn’t be fixed,†said Tina Benkiser, Chairman of the Republican Party of Texas.â€
I’m checking to see if there are similar releases from other state party organizations.
Reader 2007,
Today I happened to look at the WSJ Opinion Journal website and came across this little tidbit.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110010167
Now, I don’t know how this lends itself to our discussions, but I think its funny. I was not the only one who thought the debate challenge by NR was a farce.
Perhaps, as in all discussions, it would also be wise to hear the other side of the story. NR wanted a real debate. No 8 minute segments, with commercial interuptions, etc. That is why they did not send one person, along with the Manhaten Institutes Heather McDonald, to do small segments on tv. So, if you would like to see what NR’s position was, your in luck. I took 5 minutes at work last night to get most of their statements addressing this. I pasted them into an email, sent it home, so that I could present them for you. That way, you get both sides of the story, and can then judge for yourself why it never took place:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDQ1NGVjYzMxNGZkZmZhOTI2ZjA0Y2MyMzFlZGM
xOTY=
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTg3NzcxNmNmMzM3ZDM2ZDk5NDZlNmQ1M2MxOTQ
3M2I=
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YmVjZDBiM2MwMTk0MjNlMDdjMDI2ZDM2MzE4ZGV
iOGU=
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MWE0OTQzYTY3MWY0OTc0ODc0NjU5ZTg2YzV
mMmMwYWE=
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MDQ1NGVjYzMxNGZkZmZhOTI2ZjA0Y2MyMzFlZGM
xOTY=
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGRlYzNkNmZjMDZhOWY4ZDdlODhkOWE2NzA
5NzI5NDY=
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGIxYWE4NTAyMDZkNDI1ZDg0ZTYxYTk2MzQ
wNmQ5ZTY=
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGExMDA2MGFkYzU0Y2FmYmNjOWFkYTdiY2Y
wNzgxMzM=
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N2Q4NTRmY2M1YmQzMGFhMjhmYjdiNzdlMWN
iNWM2NTc=
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OWY1ODQ5MDIwZjMwYmMwYmYyNzExY2IwMzk
4NDdmNmM=
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YWNkMzVhYzQ4Mjc0N2FlZmYxMzk4ZmE2MmN
hNDI3YjM=
There you go, I hope this was helpfull.
Well, that does it, Jacqui. That release officially puts Tina Benkiser and all Texas Republicans (who are picking up a $3.7 Billion a year tab for illegals) in the “immigration hypochondria” column. But the Republicans who saw this bill as the “Great American Give-away Program” are the only ones ever discussed here. Never any mention of the eleven Democrats who saw the same thing and voted against cloture.
“No, we stopped challanging the claims, not because you folks were right. It was because you folks don’t listen and start disparaging people when you start losing.”
When was any of our questions ever challanged? When were there ever any answers given? When asked of the back door costs to this bill, when was any explaination given of what the real costs would be? If I missed the answers (and I don’t think I did) then I apologize. But I don’t remember any answers being given to legitimate questions and concerns about this bill, just the blanket statement that it is “the best we can do.” That is not an answer; that is a dodge. WE disparaged people? How? What were the slanderous names that were thrown out by those of us who opposed this bill?
One thing has happened; Americans have seen with their own eyes how deals are made in back rooms by our elected elites to serve their own purposes. And America did not like it. Now, Americans are going to wonder what other deals are being concocted in back rooms with Senators patting themselves on the back for being able to pander to their special interest groups and bring home the bacon. Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi promised a new dawn in Washington, one that would end the corruption and pandering to special interests and so far they have fallen extremely short on that promise. Even the bill they passed to end earmarks has fallen by the wayside. But Americans are now distrustful of the machinations of D.C. and are watching. That is the good thing that has come out of this bill.
Harry Reid complained that it was taking too long to pass this bill and therefore ended discussion when it failed it’s second cloture vote. But one should remind Mr. Reid how long it took the Senate to pass a military funding bill. I believe it was 17 weeks. Is Mr. Reid saying that dealing with immigration and IL-legal immigration is less important to our nation that the war in Afghanistan and Iraq and therefore should require less time?
This was a bill that a few, headed up by Kennedy with imput from the Administration, designed and because we were not allowed to question the perfection of the bill, the authors tried to ram down our throats. Kennedy lost it yesterday talking about the war zone on the border. How the hell would he know? When was the last time he was on the borders? When was the last time he talked to the Border Sheriff’s Coalition or the Border Patrol? Or did he just talk to the Director of the Border Patrol wh0 has managed to get a 100% No Confidence vote from the entire Border Patrol?
Perhaps the sleeping giant has awakened from his long nap when it comes to ILlegal immigration and has said this has to stop. Enforce our laws. Stop the bleeding and then worry about the wound.
Rasmussen has a nice article. He states his opinion why this bill failed. His logic is very difficult to fault.
–begin quote–
The reality is much simpler and has nothing to do with legislative tactics. The immigration bill failed because a broad cross-section of the American people are opposed to it. Republicans, Democrats, and unaffiliated voters are opposed. Men are opposed. So are women. The young don’t like it; neither do the no-longer-young. White Americans are opposed. Americans of color are opposed.
The last Rasmussen Reports national telephone poll found that just 23% of Americans supported the legislation. When a bill has less popular support than the War in Iraq, it deserves to be defeated.
There is no mystery to why the public opposed the bill. In the minds of most Americans, immigration means reducing illegal immigration and enforcing the border. Only 16% believed the Senate bill would accomplish that goal.
It wasn’t amnesty or guest-worker programs or paths to citizenship that doomed the bill. Each of those provisions made it more difficult for some segments of the population to accept. However, most voters were willing to accept them as part of a true compromise that accomplished the primary goal of reducing illegal immigration.
The key to winning voter support was to accomplish that primary goal.
–end quote–
source for the quote above –
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/why_the_senate_immigration_bill_failed
I tried posting links to the NR, WSJ debate idea, from NR’s perspective. I guess they are lost is syber space or something. We have Toranto’s take, but should we not have boths sides opinion on it to proper judge the idea?
At Nr’s home page both their editorials on the debate Idea are near the bottom on the left of the page. If you go to blog row next, click on the corner, then archives, and look for heading pertaining to it in the 6/4 – 6/7 timeframe, you can read more on it. They thought it was going to happen, but it never materialized.
They were not interested in one on one in 8 minute segments interupted by commercials. They wanted 2 to 3 from both sides, in a public forum, with a nutral moderator, with the WSJ chosing the person to moderate. They wanted the public to be able to attend, and perhaps have some input and submitte questions.
I have noticed that AJ seems to be approaching the illegal immigration from the perspective of, “What are we going to do with all of these people?”
That is why I believe he did not see the need to bother with reading the legislation. He knew that it solved the problem of all the people currently here. Therefore, in his mind, it solved the big problem. He doesn’t seem to understand that the majority look at this problem and say, “How are we going to stop all of this illegal immigration?”
I have been meaning to ask him precisely what problem he thought this legislation solved, because I had a hunch what his answer would be. But I decided it was a waste of time. He hasn’t read the bill. I felt foolish trying to debate someone on the pros and cons of a bill, when I knew that person had not even read it. That’s like trying to debate someone on “Moby Dick” when the other person hasn’t read it. Who is the bigger in fool in that scenario? Tough call, isn’t it?
Below are more quotes from the same rasmussen article that I quoted above.
–begin quote–
The key to winning voter support was to accomplish that primary goal.
The Senators missed that point and that’s where the mystery resides in analyzing why this bill failed. It’s not unusual for political leaders to be out of touch with their constituents, but rarely this out of touch. How could something this unpopular with voters get so close to passage in a legislative body that is supposed to represent them?
From the beginning, the Senate approached the issue with top priority of addressing the legal status of the illegal aliens. They addressed concerns about guest-worker programs and questions about whether family or skill level should be more important when determining who could enter the country.
All of those are important questions, but they are not the most important question. Rasmussen Reports polling found that 72% of Americans believe it’s Very Important to reduce illegal immigration and enforce the borders. Just 29% said it was Very Important to legalize the status of those illegally living in the country today.
After ignoring the main point that voters were hoping to address, Senators should not have been shocked at the public reaction. But they were.
–end quote–
I think it’s objectively clear that the previous bill, at the current stage, did not sit well with most Americans. And that cut across all measurable lines.
I think ignoring that and trying to ram this bill through anyway was the first very large miscalculation. Trying to end debate on the bill was the 2nd large miscalculation. And I think unless the people who are pushing this come to understand the scope and dynamics of opposition to this bill, they are bound to repeat mistake number one AND two until this bill is completely dead.
As far as hypocondriacs screaming that the sky is falling if this bill doesn’t pass…I’m not worried. Because as soon as it’s throughly deep-sixed…..there will be a “new” bill…that will take up the issues at hand that will force those blocking debate on this issue out of the picture and recognize this as a US Immigration policy bill rather than an Illegal Alien Rights bill.
No, no, no, Apache, it was the far right wing immigration hypochondriacs that killed the bill. The center and the Democrats were for it. Haven’t you been told that often enough?
Why would black Americans and Americans of Hispanic heritage not want this bill? Surely that was a provision that would prevent their already low wages from be driven down even farthers? Oh, wait, no there wasn’t.
No, this was just about the American hatred for “brown” people. LaRaza told us that; LULAC told us that, all the other PRO-ILlegal immigrations groups told us that and they were in constant contact with Kennedy so he knew it as well. And don’t you remember all those Chinese who are illegals marching in the streets with the PRO-ILlegal and open borders groups? Oh, wait, they didn’t march.
This was bad legislation. Pure and simple and it needs to be redone. If we need all those farm workers, maybe it is time the farm industry modernizes. Maybe it is time that we realize that the farm industry has fought modernization for years because they take the easy way out. And maybe it is time we tell other nations that we are not going to take in their unwanted any longer so they can turn around and import even cheaper labor from other nations.
Maybe it is time Americans start thinking in terms of American first. But that would be a really novel concept in the halls of the Congress and Senate. Representing Americans first and doing what they were elected to do.
It should not take a genius to figure out how to handle all these illegals. When a person is stopped by , or apprehended , by any police officer (for any reason) and identified as being in this country illegally, he should be put on the first bus back to where he came from. If he has smuggled his family in here, or has married an American cituzen and produced a family, then that is his problem., not ours. These people should take responsibility for their actions, and make arrangements for their family’s welfare.
No, no, no, Apache, it was the far right wing immigration hypochondriacs that killed the bill. The center and the Democrats were for it.
What is really sad is that I believe that he truly does believe that. Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, AJ truly believes that. That’s just sad. Not to mention completely out of touch with reality.