Jun 03 2007
More Immigration Hypochondriac Foolishness
As I have said many times, sometimes to win a debate you just have to let the other side demonstrate how wrong they are. Much of my current material comes from the hypochondriac postings on my site. They demonstrate over and over how out of control the Bush opponents are. Now they are buying into what are clearly planted propaganda stories. This was the basis of one comment which just has to be the craziest, most paranoid rant I have seen in a long time:
Debbie [Schlussel],
USCIS will not conduct an INTERAGENCY BORDER INSPECTION SYSTEM (IBIS) CHECKS on applicants as part of the TWP. This will increase the number of applicants processed each day (and decrease our safety).
***
CIS will NOT use IBIS/TECS Background Checks during the process of applicants at the Temporary ASC locations [DS: ASCs are Application Support Centers, where they will process Temporary Worker applicants]. CIS plans to open 100 Temporary ASC locations WITHOUT connectivity to IBIS/TECS. Will Congress be interested to hear the news that they are funding a part of the Guest Worker Program that DOES NOT CHECK BACKGROUNDS OF ALIENS????!!!!
Another Chicken Little squawks. First off, no legislation discusses connectivity of systems like this. We do not write laws that are computer system designs and requirements. Second, anyone wonder why this would work? It is not the computer background check that takes any time! It is entering the data of the applicant. Once that is done the computers take over and it is a matter of seconds. Third, background checks are held in the computer records, so there is now way to pretend to have checked the DB, the DB would not have the record of the check. I could list 100 reasons why this is pure myth. But no one in the hypochondriac camp will listen because this news is too good to be true! The Bushies are lying to us!
Oh, please. What a silly crock. This is classic DC propaganda and Schlussel and others fell for it because they have stopped thinking and are running on emotion: the one called panic. Someone is feeding the rabid masses more rabies. This is as ridiculous as the claims by the far left that Bush was behind 9-11 and exploded the twin towers using pre-staged charges. Why would anyone pretend to do background checks? The far right has gone over the edge of paranoid delusions. Now people understand why I coined the term immigration hypochondriacs. God save us from this mess.
Update: Ms Schlussel has commented below on how I “stole” her comments without siting her blog. As I wrote above, I was responding to a reader’s comment here, who by the way did not leave a link. I did note it was from Schlussel by adding in her name in the ‘to’ field of the email (making it pretty darn clear this was an email to her and not something she wrote). Ms. Schlussel has engaged in the same exaggeration and personal attacks which is now the staple of the Immigration Hypochondriacs. She called me a thief for responding to a reader of my blog who brought up her posting. I am awaiting her apology. And I have her on not-so-double-secret-probation for violoating the rules of my site (no wild insults against your host). I am not, however, holding my breath.
Clearly Ms Schlussel put as much thought into callng me a thief (as if I wanted her ideas to be mine???) as she did into the wild claims of some DHS official with an ax to grind or plans for personal power.
I grew up in DC and stuff like this comes out all the time. Just some of us our a lot more cautious about giving these thing credence at face value. The idea we would call for faux background checks is pure silliness. As I said their are 100 of obvious reasons why this is just silly. One more is the agency doing the checks will make sure it gets money to institute a really nice, expensive process and systems with access to other systems to do the job. The government is not known for under engineering its systems. It would be much more realistic to find more money than needed to hook up to DB’s than none at all in an attempt to fake the checks. It is this unrealistic thinking that makes the bill’s opponents lack credibility. And it is their personal attacks on us who find their arguments lacking that further erodes their arguments. The conservative movement is broken because the Immigration Hypochondriacs called for this civil war. They should stop complaining about the battle they wanted to have. They thought they had the cons all with them – and now they are learning a hard lesson. They wanted to teach a lesson to Bush, but the big question is are they capable of learning a lesson themselves? So far not so good.
Update: Reader Sue asked on one of these threads who I define “immigration hypochondriac” and I wrote back anyone who is against a guest worker program that encompasses the general parameters of the one in the bill. That includes punishments of a fine and paying back taxes, background checks, tamper-proof IDs, etc. I lile the provision for those with criminal pasts to get the boot. I like the new program where citizenship is not an option – including any children born here during their work time. So anyone who opposes this in any immigration bill, and is willing to leave us with the status quo to make sure a guest worker program is never enacted, as the Immigration Hypoccrite.
With that said, no bill is perfect and can use corrections. Those willing to support a program with some minor fixes (i.e., forget the poison pill game) then I would not include them in the definition of hypochondriac. No bill is perfect. Government doesn’t produce perfection – it produces consensus. Too many people forget this. Especially on the Conservative side when they get their back up. You would think they would remember government being a mixed bag since it is the essence of their policy positions. So it is hypocrtiical to demand perfection from that we all know cannot produce perfection.
The excuses not to act are endless, and the last refuge of those losing the debate. Acting, even imperfectly, is the true sign of leadership. We all know how is demonstrating leadership and doing what he can to make things better (not perfect), and we all know who have lost so much ground they are now proposing more of the very same they thing they used to say had to be addrressed.
Dale:
First of all, I do not owe anyone an apology. I have been called a liar and a fool and a phony and God knows what. I am not going to apologize to anyone. And I don’t doubt you will find a lot of lawmakers who say a lot of things about this bill…however, what I have noticed thus far is that the only ones certain people believe or listen to are the ones saying the sorts of things they want to hear.
Secondly I never said that people did not have the right to question the bill or even not support the bill if they felt they could not do so…all I ask of people is that they make a good faith effort to come up with something better rather than just bitch and moan and leave us with nothing but what we have right now.
If there are problems with this bill then lawmakers like the one who link to can address those problems in the form of amendments, if indeed the claims are valid.
I have already contacted my Senators with questions about the triggers. I will add these as well.
I support a guest worker program too and I don’t really care if people get a path to citizenship or not. There are a lot of things about the bill that I would never claim are perfect. This problem has been around for a long time and it seems that there are a lot of experts out there on the critical side, it is kind of surprising that they have had no real successful legislation of their own to show for their all their time and energy.
More hypochondriac foolishness here. This article is by Senator John Cornyn, who is one of the people who ACTUALLY WORKED ON THE BILL, and he says it is a total fraud and that DHS is NOT ALLOWED to check visa applicants for security purposes, Here ia a quote, “Department of Homeland Security is again prohibited from using all information from Z visa applications to weed out ineligible applicants.”
Here is another quote damn near word for word what has been posted by anti-bill posters on this site:
“For example, the new bill gives the USCIS all of 24 hours to grant a probationary “Z” visa to any undocumented alien requesting it during the first year that the law is effective. If 12 million apply as expected, that means USCIS would have to process an average of 48,000 applications every day.
But the USCIS has only 3,000 staffers to process and review applications, including background checks. The current legislation would add only 100 new adjudicators each year for five years.
Clearly, the agency is being set up for failure. We are ensuring that the new system will not be workable. Law enforcement personnel assure me that there is no way a reliable background check could be conducted within 24 hours even if sufficient personnel were available.”
Everyone needs to read this article:
http://www.star-telegram.com/245/story/123257.html
OK AJ, tell us all how Senator Cornyn is a rabid off his rocker Hypochodriac now.
What is the matter with you, Bikerken? Of course Cornyn is a rapid right wing immigration hypochondriac. He is a) a Southerner, b) a Texas and c) a conservative Republican.
But he has been in this immigration fight since the git-go and I promise you, his phone, in all his offices, is ringing off the wall. And it ain’t FOR this bill.
Cornyn has worked to try to put some sense into this bill but has pretty well been shot down every time. And I am sure he is now at odds with Kyl. And I know he is p.o.ed at McCain. If Cornyn is one thing, he is a gentleman.
I have been following the Border Patrol local web sites to see how they are going to react to the President’s speech to them last week since they have come out against the bill and the Tucson sector has come out against Kyl saying he is not keeping his campaign promises.
I wonder how those who are for this bill can excuse that in Los Angeles County, every day, more people are killed (murdered or killed in drunk driving accidents) by illegals than the number of soldiers we are losing in war.
I have the kind of job where a criminal back ground check has to be done and it did not take longer than 24 hours and that was several years ago. Of course I did not have a criminal background either and they had all the relevant data and they were not overwhelmed with applicants either.
I think there is some disagreement here on what will be needed and it might be that no one will know for sure until they do it, but they could change the system if they had to, give it more time if necessary or increase resources or just plain scrap the whole provision and come up with something better.
And I don’t think anyone is saying that everyone with questions is rabid. We all have questions, and sometimes I wonder about some of these statements. For instance, no one wants a terrorist to come in here and kill people, including the people who put this bill together. So perhaps there is some question of turf here.
Retire:
I don’t excuse anything of the kind, but if this is killed those people will still be there doing what they are doing. So far no one has come up with anything productive that will really change that.
After all I have been told time and again that it is crazy of me to say that hardliners just want to round people up and ship em out.
I know I wonder why it is the people of California elect a man to be Mayor of Los Angeles and not boot him out of office when he tells local law enforcement that they do not need to work with the INS. But then again, I am one of those up north people and I just don’t understand what it is that the border state people are going through.
Terrye, you keep mixing apples and oranges here, a criminal background check is not the same as an immigration background check. A criminal background check involves asking the police if someone has a record. And for your information, all fifty states are not on the same systems for criminal background checks and depending on the crime, some information can get purged or lost. An immigration background check is something different altogether. That check goes back to your home country and interpol sources and takes into consideration, political party affiliations and activity, past travel, etc. A typical package submitted to USCIS has all kinds of personal information, including references, job history, military service, education in it that is not ever considered in a typical NCIC check back home. Doesn’t it sound logical that if someone wants to immigrate to this country from ethiopia, that you’re probably not going to have much information from the Maybury R.F.D. police dept if the person has not come here yet? But, that’s just the way it is supposed to work.
Terrye, you said, “why it is the people of California elect a man to be Mayor of Los Angeles and not boot him out of office when he tells local law enforcement that they do not need to work with the INS.” I can answer that, illegals vote. LA is at least 60 percent Hispanic now and some of the burbs are close to a hundred percent. Many of them are illegal or were before the last amnesty. They are very anti US and pro-mexico and they don’t give a damn what anybody thinks about it. For those of you who still think they want to assimilate look here, this is from MeChA’s website:
http://www.nationalmecha.org/about.html
Here’s a quote about assimilation: “The Mexican-American (Hispanic) is a person who lacks respect for his/her cultural and ethnic heritage. Unsure of her/himself, she/he seeks assimilation as a way out of her/his “degraded” social status. Consequently, she/he remains politically ineffective. In contrast, Chicanismo reflects self-respect and pride on one’s ethnic and cultural background. Thus, the Chicana/o acts with confidence and with a range of alternatives in the political world. She/he is capable of developing an effective ideology through action” (El Plan de Santa Barbara).”
Also take a look at the regional map on that website and see what they describe as Aztlan. This is a very popular ideaology down in Socal. Those who would have you believe this is a fringe majority don’t know what they are talking about.
minority that is.
Terrye, if this bill is killed, maybe, just maybe, the damn government will start enforcing the laws we already have on the books. Maybe, just maybe, people, like those in the border states, have had a belly full of the “they are just here to work” crap and want the laws to really mean something other that cheap lip service. And maybe, just maybe, the government will untie the hands of the Border Patrol and let them do their jobs without charging them with attempted murder when they shoot a drug running slug in the behind while he is trying to escape. And maybe, just maybe, people are beginning to wake up and see what we on the front lines have been putting up with for years while the elites in Washington yawned. And maybe, just maybe, the fact that this bill is soooo bad and people are becoming aware of the impending sell out, will get Americans off their butts and see them demand that the laws be enforced, that our borders be closed to those who would sneak in like a thief in the night and quit raking American taxpayers over the coals so the D.C. elites can pay for their little feel good programs.
But if this bill does pass, I expect you and people like you, to pick up my tax tab for the cost of this boondoggle.
BikerKen
Good Greig where to start
YOU said
“suspect you are a card carrying KOS Kid masquerading as a conservative to try to persuade other conservatives to your point of view. You are not the only one that I suspect of doing that on this blog. Your logic just doesn’t fit your rap.”
OK go here
http://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/default.asp?b=50
MY User Name is Bayourant. You shall see I have started numerous threads on immigration. You will also see that I have started numerous threads about the crazies at the Dem debate tonight. If you review my posting history you will see that I am Social conservative Catholic Republican. If you think I am some plant well oh well.TIme for you to realize that your view doesnt speak for all Republicans
Continuing on YOu said:
You said, “Once one gets away from the blogs and talk radio ine realizes that American people are not in a uproar over this bill.â€
What a steaming pile of liberal logic! The fact is that talk radio and the blogs have become so popular with conservatives because they are the venues that the liberal left has not had a lock on for decades
I agree with you. But also BLogs and talk radio at times becomes Echo chambers just as much for the extreme right as it does extreme left. Imean goodness how many blogs just parrot Hot Air, and link to pieces on Redstate. There is a big lack of critical thinking going on. Does Daily Kos for instance reflect the views of my Democrat neighbors? Not by a long shot. The point being is that do not think that this uproar and emotion that everyone is feeding off of is indicative of the public mood. That is the reason why I have gone to pains to show last years elections where immigration was numero uno issue and how the anti comprehensive people lost and people like REP FLAKE won. So far no one has explained that fact to me. Again, different segmensts of the party are important and thye need to be listened too
You said
“To defend the position that this is not complete legalization when they can stay here, work, travel, vote, recieve mandatory wages above americans, and not be bothered by the law makes you look like a shill for the bill. Especially when you throw on top of that the TOTALLY MORONIC position that they are not being put to the “Front of the Line†of people who are trying to immigrate here legally”
Whoa hoss step back from the edge. Perhaps I missed it in the bill where tehy could vote. It should not shock you that if people are workers here that they can travel and work.
You said
“You’ve lost credibility as far as I’m concerned. The fact is that people who are supporting this bill are kumbaya globalists. They really don’t believe in borders and rules and all of that icky stuff. They think that if the US would just follow the EU example and reduce the importance of that icky border down to an imaginary line that doesn’t really mean anything, that we would all just get along better. These are the same people who don’t believe the police should chase people because someone could get hurt. Sounds real touchy feely nice, but it’s just plain wrong.”
LOL , you are one of those people that think the sun sets on Jerome Corsi and probally believes all this NOrth American Union plot and the talk of the Amero. Globalist? First I am associated with the Daily Kos Crowd and now I am a associated with the GLobalist crowd. I don’t think one can be both:)
Aj,
Is it too much to ask that Congress and the President prove to us that they can secure the border first? President’s before Bush and many congress’ ago Ted Kennedy has promised us that the bill of the day would secure the borders and fix illegal immigration. You have to forgive the majority if we don’t believe.
BIGLSU, I have heard one person after another spout their conservative credentials and then start talking like Alan Colmes. Pardom by skepticism. Would you admit that there our thousands of those phonys out there who are funded by Soros and his media organizations. Rush calls them something like, con
Blogs and radio are only a small part of the crescendo of criticism falling down around this bill. Congress is receiving phone calls, emails, and faxes by the tens of thousands with only a tiny percentage supporting it. There is also very little support on the left. That FACT alone should make them take pause and think about what they are doing.
As far as voting, do you deny that illegals are voting in large numbers in the southwest? Are you in that deep denial of how far this has gone. When they had those marchs in 2005, there were even democrat poll workers registering people to vote. How do you think Flake won? Rep Brian Bilbray won handily down here running in San Diego on a hard anti-illegal immigration ticket. The woman he beat, Ruth Busby, was caught on tape at a meeting of illegal mexicans telling them they did not have to have papers to vote! AND when they start getting drivers licenses because they are legal now, they will be registered to vote in many places because of the motor voter bill. In California, you can’t even ask someone to prove their citizenship in order to get registered. We had this conversation on another thread and several people on this blog realized that the laws in their state would indeed allow them to vote! Voter registration is a state controlled priveledge. That’s why it is not in the bill. And when I mentioned travel, I was talking about traveling in and out of the U.S. freely. I don’t think that is a good thing for someone who you still know just about nothing to begin with. My point is, what right does a citizen have that they don’t? Can a citizen get legally gaurenteed pay at prevailing wage? No other country on this planet would go for something this crazy, the ones that have come close are now paying for it in spades and changing their policies back to a more secure posture. Have you been reading anything about what’s happening in Europe, London or Paris lately. You are making my point LSU, you are supporting something that you have no idea of what the real impact of it would be. The senators have tried to shove this thing through in a week without any public debate at all! That should give you reason for pause right there. Read what Senator Cornyn says about the bill the HE WORKED ON in the link above in my previous post. Even he says it is a disaster in the making as is. What I cannot understand is the dogged insistence on the support of something that nobody who supports it can even argure the merits of. That implies an irrational level of entusiasm for the unknown.
Lastly, I have never heard of Jerome Corsi?
BLsu,
JD Hayworth lost after re-districting and his dem opponent & victor talked as tough on immigration as he was, thereby removing it as “the issue”, which then became Bush & Iraq war-weariness & other nonsense peddled by the MSM (Foley-gate, corruption, etc.). Flake is a well-liked repub in a heavy repub district. Pretty simple. Happened all over the country.
DC made a good point about the need to remove incentives for the lillegals to come & stay here, which is about jobs and law enforcement. Unfortunately, this bill will encourage a mad rush for more illegals due to the instantly legal probationary basis. And if the border security measures aren’t exactly working yet, well … no surprise — it’s ’86 deja vu all over again, except much worse and a huge drag on the economy.