Jul 16 2012
How Will Witness 9 (GZ’s Molested Cousin) Effect TM Charges?
Well, a bombshell dropped in the George Zimmerman trial for Murder 2 for the killing of young Trayvon Martin:
A relative of George Zimmerman claims she was molested by him when they were both children, the latest allegation in the case against the former neighborhood watch volunteer charged in the fatal shooting of Trayvon Martin.
The interview with police, done nearly a month after the February shooting, was made public Monday after local media fought to have it released, over objections from prosecutors and the defense.
You can get all the evidence regarding Witness 9 here. Witness 9 was the anonymous caller who told police there was a sinister, hidden side to the soft-spoken, policeman-wannabe George Zimmerman. I actually don’t see much impact on the trial except to once more destroy GZ’s credibility (which is already shot to pieces). Even her claims of racism are not against GZ, but against his estranged mother. Clearly this woman has some legitimate beef with GZ, but very little is applicable to the TM case. The only connection that might be made is how well GZ can hide brutal behavior, and how little he cares about his victims (his apology to Witness 9 and her parents was a sad joke).
To be honest, not much more is needed in the case against GZ. As you sift through the evidence, more and more problems become clear. One thing I was thinking of doing was listing how GZ’s story changes over time to deal with serious flaws in his original telling. Something like this [click to enlarge]:
The data comes from this impressive analysis (not all of which I agree with BTW). I still may do one because a few key items are missing from this table – specifically the CVSA interview which has some real damning statements from GZ. For example, at around the 28 minute mark in the interview, GZ drops this whopper on why he got out of the car (may not be 100% accurate transcription):
GZ: All the houses I was next to were the back of the houses, they are town houses so I did not know the address. They [dispatch] said we need to know what street you’re on, what address. …[GZ babbles about giving his street address]… and I got out of my car to look for a street sign so I could tell what street I was on, and … there was no street sign, and I couldn’t make out the house in front of me because there was a big pick up truck there…
This is of course a lie – he saw TM run and he jumped out of his car to follow, without any prompting from the dispatcher. All the mythical interchanges with dispatch on addresses and such never happened. But the dumb part was the reason for not using an address right in front of him. It seems this ginormous pick up truck was blocking the address number of the first house (now known to be the house of Witnesses 11 and 20) at the end of the building TM ran behind. This is why GZ has to run across the top of the T to the other side of the next building over to find any house numbers.
…. yeah, right. Check out where the house numbers are:
I mean – really? A truck totally blocked this from any view? GZ had to walk over 200 feet away, crossing two sets of buildings instead, just to find a house number (instead of maybe looking at the next house to the right)? Prosecutors are going to have a field day with this BS. BTW, recall we have two witnesses who testified GZ told them he got out of the car to find TM. And GZ admitted he was chasing TM to the police dispatcher.
Of course, the fact TM ran from GZ, who then follows TM when he runs away, is proof enough this was not a self defense or stand your ground case for GZ. When one party tries to avoid the conflict (like running away) then the person who continues the confrontation is the criminal, and the other is the victim.
In this case a dead victim.
So I don’t see how Witness 9 does anything for or against GZ. His troubles are monumental already. His story is impossible on numerous levels, with witnesses and evidence poking holes into his claims. They will not need to use witness 9 in court.
But I bet some of those standing by Zimmerman now (like is Air Marshall buddy) will be rethinking which side they want to be on….
Layman,
You are almost in love with GZ….
And you call us analyzing the evidence biased?
Kettle, come in Kettle……
BTW, there is no chance events happened even remotely close to what GZ said. None.
He keeps changing his story not because he can’t recall – he recalls in ridiculous detail. He keeps changing it because he realizes it is easily proven wrong and he needs to fix it.
GZ is pretty dumb. When he wished there was some way he could have avoided the incident it was clear – stay in your damn truck as you were trained. Doh!
I was wondering how long it would take.
It actually took a little bit less time than I expected.
In cases like this there’s reality, and then there’s what the parties would like observers to believe is reality.
When the physical evidence is examined, however, that is unchangeable and indisputable.
In this particular case, the physical evidence, the audio tapes, and the basic realities of time and motion belie the multiple and varying stories that Z has been weaving.
And once Z gets caught lying about the basics then everything else he says is suspect and subject to scrutiny.
When his story doesn’t fit the physical evidence then one has to wonder why.
When his story is constantly evolving and changing and morphing then one has to wonder why.
Truth is constant. It doesn’t change or vary.
Z has yet to tell a version of the story which fits the unchanging, unyielding, and unbiased items of physical evidence.
Why is that? Doesn’t it make you wonder?
Layman, no attacks coming. Just a couple of “huh’s?” from me.
Wow… Good thing there was no 6′, 190lb kid there that night, eh?
Martin was 5’11” (71″ per the medical examiner) and 158lbs. Thus the “larger than life” comment. The martial arts addition is because of the general references to his supposed superior MMA fighting abilities. Zim’s weight has been up and down since the murder, but he was close to 200lbs that night, and 5’8″, tho he advertises himself as 5’10” on his MySpace page.
6′ and 190lbs… LOL So what was that about over the top hyperbole again? Yup… larger than life.
I’d say that where most of us deviate in this event is that those who focus on Zim’s injuries want to wish away everything that led to those injuries. I guess this means that, in your view of self defense, you can walk thru a neighborhood, minding your own business. I can profile you, follow you first in a car, then pursue you on foot when you attempt to get away, continue further hunting you, ignoring every opportunity to ID myself as a concerned resident, and when I meet up with you after all this threatening behavior, I still don’t ID myself.
But you have no right to attack me when I reach for something in my pocket. (try telling that to a police officer…)
???
But just in case if you are afraid I just might be carrying a weapon… and coincidentally, I am and it’s holstered right where I’m “reaching”… and I can shoot you, and I’ve done nothing wrong.
It’s a weird concept of self defense, mind you. But that’s pretty much what anyone who believes that Zim’s injuries, alone, are actually supporting in self defense theory.
There was no reasonable purpose for Zimmerman and O’Mara to go on Hannity save for public relations. His various official stories of that night are within easy access of any one with an Internet connection. This was nothing more than a fund raiser.
OK Mata. You win with your superior intellect. I stand in amazement. You pick at the nits but don’t even address the underlying concept.
By the way, my youngest son is 11, almost 12. He is a pretty big kid for his age standing 5’4″ and weighing about 120 lbs. Just before last Christmas we were wresting around and he got me in a wrist lock and broke my wrist. Why bother to mention this? I guess to illustrate that in the right circumstances a 5’4″ 120 lb kid can be a threat to a 6’1″ 210 lb man.
So a 5’11” 160 lb kid could not possibly be a threat? Could not possibly sucker punch someone and break his nose? Could not possibly grab a dazed older/heavier individual and pound his head on the concrete? Is that what you’re saying?
OK, so I got the kid’s size wrong as I wrote from memory? So what?
You and AJ are so righteous in your disgust with GZ you can’t even address my strawman with logic. Immediately go to the sarcasm and attacks. Man, I am impressed! (sarc/ off)
Mata: See, there you go again…
To answer your question: “I guess this means that, in your view of self defense, you can walk thru a neighborhood, minding your own business…”
No it doesn’t. Why ask such as (deleted expletive) stupid question? I have explained my position at least a dozen times. Let me try once more as simply as possible.
Zimmerman initiated the events of that evening. Zimmerman is responsible. Since a death occured Zimmerman is guilty of something. The question is: What is he guilty of?
If he tracked down Trayvon and shot him in cold blood as you seem to believe then you are correct – Murder 2 is the appropriate charge. However, if Trayvon got his mojo going, decided to confront GZ, decided to teach him a lesson, sucker punched him, jumped on him, beat his head on the sidewalk… well that changes the circumstances quite a bit. I don’t think it allows GZ to claim pure self-defnse ala RT, but I do think it redu ces the appropriate charge to some form of manslaughter or wreckless endangerment, etc.
So I’m in love with GZ for thinking he might have a case for something less than Murder 2, but you and AJ are just normal, law loving, honest citizens for concluding that GZ is a dark sinister character who murdered an innoent kid? Now I understand.
BGG: “In cases like this there’s reality, and then there’s what the parties would like observers to believe is reality.”
Agreed, but you left out an important third level which is what I was trying to bring to the discussion. There are people’s interpretations of reality. It’s called point of view and can not be dismissed.
And when those interpretations and points of view don’t fit the physical evidence then they, too, must be dismissed as invalid.
Z has yet to present a coherent story which fits the unwavering physical evidence.
Why is that? Doesn’t it make you wonder?
So… Layman, are you saying that you missed what Z had to say about “God’s will” in that interview?
BGG: REALLY?
I just went back and listened to the clip. The transcript isn’t up yet but the video is here: http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/index.html#/v/1741927642001/zimmerman-does-not-regret-carrying-gun-all-gods-plan/?playlist_id=1740294887001
Hannity asks him a series of questions about regrets and GZ says he can’t second guess God’s plan.
A lot of religious people believe that whatever occurs in their life is part of God’s plan and that whatever occurs it will, in the end, serve a purpose. That general philosophy is very different than justifying a single action as “God’s will”.
For sure it is a hell of a lot different than AJ’s snarky comment: “…St. George was clear:it was God’s will he killed that unarmed boy.”
So, did you miss AJ’s comment? Did you miss exactly what GZ said? Do you not understand the concept of people believing in “God’s plan” ?
This is where our [deleted expletive] communication seems to break down, Layman. What Zimmerman’s actions and choices fit is the murder two charge to a tee. This is why the State chose that charge.
Again, the three elements:
1: Victim is dead… check
2: Criminal acts… a series of events that created the conditions that led to the death … check
3: Depraved mind… an unlawful killing of the victim by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life.
As the FindLaw overview on depraved mind, as it relates to murder two specifically:
The potential, and resulting, loss of life is because Zimmerman totally disregarded how his actions would appear threatening and intimidating to Martin, how his choice to pursue on foot while armed – a no no under all watch guidelines – was also an utter disregard for the potential loss of life. And culminating in his choice not to identify himself when they met, but “reach” for something, giving Martin full rights to feel his life was in danger.
It’s number three that hangs everyone up because of a layman (no personal affront.. LOL) interpretation of the word depraved. The depraved mind element will be the largest uphill battle of the three for the State. Frankly, I think they can prove 1 & 2 beyond reasonable doubt quite easily.
Compare manslaughter charges in Florida.
This doesn’t fit because Zimmerman did demonstrate “malice” in many ways, and he did plan because he hunted Martin deliberately. His untrained profiling basically comes down to a black kid in a hoodie, who wasn’t in a hurry to get out of the rain, just looking around and didn’t look like a special forces type guy training in adverse weather. It was compounded by the use of the word, punks, and the always get away comment that he repeats in several of his official accounts. (twice in the CVSA video alone)
His actions then bore out his malice towards Martin (or representative of the bad guys who always get away…). Yes… murder two is appropriate, IMHO. It just so happens that the State and I are of the same mind.
However I also believe that the State is giving Zimmerman an out by not also adding a secondary charge of manslaughter. The jury will either have to convict on the stronger charge, or let him walk. They have no secondary charge to fall back on. This way the family is happy that the State went for the max, and everyone will be happy once the jury does it’s job – either way.
No, no and no. If I, or the State, thought that he tracked down Martin in cold blood – i.e. premeditated with the into to kill – the charge would be murder one, not two.
You think murder two is, if I may borrow your phrase, over the top. I get that, Layman. And you can see where I disagree via the above comparison of charges and that evening’s events.
Whoa there, pardner. Let’s review, shall we? What I did was only excerpt your over the top inflation of Martin’s size. But let’s look at your entire statement you made while doing that, shall we?
I found it amusing you were accusing me of engaging in “over the top hyperbole” because of “disgust” for a guy that I don’t care if he lives a normal life or dies tomorrow. He means nothing to me. Then you inflate Martin’s size to larger than life, over the top hyperbole. Ya gotta admit, you sorta negated all your comments there by doing what you falsely accused me of.
First of all, it’s not my “disgust” for Zimmerman personally and that was one of those “harsh comments” that apparently only I am guilty of… LOL.
I do have disgust for the type of mentality he represents, but that’s another story. To me, Zimmerman is just another guy with a short man syndrome problem, a desperate desire for respect and authority, and set out that night with nary a thought as to what would really happen when he found the guy he was looking for. He’s inexperienced in street smarts (even his air marshal friend said that), but likes to talk tough to those in his inner circle, or on the internet…. places where it’s safe for him to be the dominant figure.
Would I seek this guy out as a friend? No. But I wouldn’t seek Martin out either. Don’t care about either of them personally.
Because FL’s sunshine law allows the public to see evidence not available in other States, we have the puzzle pieces. We don’t know how the State will link them together, but from what I see of his own stated and admitted actions, I think what he did warrants the murder two charges, and yes… I think he’s guilty of all the elements of murder two.
But I’m not on the jury, and that ultimate call will be theirs, not mine. I’m good with whatever they decide because that’s the way our system works. I would not be okay with him never being charged, and walking on a false use of SYG.
Zimmerman was really stupid that night, and frankly I consider him some what of a wuss. From what I hear about the Hannity public relations fundraiser, it sounds like he wouldn’t have done a thing different, and something about “god’s will”… ick. This guy is a walking poster for Brady style gun control. He’s going to cause the RKBA movement so much damage it ain’t funny.
So… to your “concept”. Do I think that Zimmerman was outmatched by Martin? Nope. Zimmerman’s excessive weight makes up for the nominal 3″ height difference. Their age spread is not like you and your son. He may fight like a prom queen, for all I know, in which case my granddaughter could probably take him. But there was no physical impediment that should have him at a substantial disadvantage.
However, if he were so threatening, exactly why was ol’ George out there hunting someone who scared him?
Layman,
To religious people “God’s will” and “God’s plan” are interchangeable terms with no distinguishable difference.
Good try though.
Mata: Glad we’re down to the final words on this. You think Murder 2 is the right charge and I’m not yet convinced that it is. And I don’t think Murder 1 would ever come into play. When I said “hunt him down” I meant follow him, initiate a confrontation, shoot him when things turned against him, and then claim (falsely) that he had been attacked. I don’t think anyone, including Saint AJ, thinks that GZ got his gun and went out that evening in a premeditated way looking for someone to kill.
BGG: I don’t know your religious beliefs but in mine the terms “God’s will” and “God’s plan” are not interchangeable. There are differences, sometimes subtle and sometimes gross, depending on the context. But if you show me your divinity degree I may decide to give you bonus points.
More importantly, you ignore the context. GZ made his comment after several questions from Hannity about “regrets.” It wasn’t an out of the blue, “Hey!, I killed this boy because God told me to” kind of thing (as AJ tried to imply).
Nice try though.
Mata: Just reread your last paragraph. AGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!
Ever been punched in the face? I hope not for your sake but even if you don’t have personal experience please try to imagine… TM was arguing with GZ and suddenly hit him (sucker punched) in the face hard enough to break his nose. What would that be like? Would GZ be in instant pain? Would he be disoriented? Could he possibly be near unconciousness for a second or two? Could he have fallen down or been off-balance so TM could jump on him and start pounding his head on the concrete?
Maybe after getting hit he was fighting like a Prom Queen. How would you fair in that situation?
Mata, one last thing (a nit if you will) since you never bothered to answer the question. Could a 5’11” 160 lb kid be a threat to a 5’8″ 200 lb man? What if that kid sucker punched the man (hitting him in the face hard enough to break his nose)?
Simple question, please answer.
Yes, Layman… I have been punched so I have no need to “imagine”. Unfortunately, I had some of my own problems in the past as a battered wife, and I had this penchant for fighting back. Landed in the hospital during one of those and finally got wise that it takes two to be ill to continue a relationship like that. Embarrassing history, but I’m well over it now.
I think I’m a better fighter than a prom queen, BTW… but I’ve seen smaller men fare quite well against larger opponents. Especially when weight is on their side. As I said, and has been pointed out, the physical differences between the two are not enough to put Zimmerman at any disadvantage whatsoever.
And that brings me to what you said I didn’t answer. Or perhaps you didn’t get what I was saying above. Anyone can be a threat, or be the winner of a skirmish, regardless of size or weight. Depends upon fighting skills of the two involved… ergo my fighting like a prom queen/my granddaughter could beat him remark.
But the most direct answer to your question as to whether Martin would be a threat… nope. Never once. Because Zimmerman was armed and that will always give him the edge. His problem is he is too quick on the trigger. Responsible gun owners do not pull their weapons out so easily. That should be the last line of defense, not the first.
His alleged head bashing and injuries are embarrassingly minimal to warrant the use of a firearm. And frankly, I don’t believe he got his head bashed on concrete at all. I’ve hit the pavement from motorcycle accidents and I’ve seen what pavement can do. My injuries were far worse than Zimmerman’s, yet I was still quite functional.
That takes care of the “near unconsciousness for a second or two”, as he certainly seemed capable of getting back to his feet to continue the fight (since the death didn’t take place where he says he was decked). As far as as how the head banging affected him… perhaps RT wants to ignore the 38 second of yells prior to the gunshot. Those same seconds are when Zim is supposed to be getting his head based, and then being suffocated by having his nose and mouth covered. Few seem to want to address that. Nor how the body ended up 40-45′ away from the farthest south point of the scuffle Zim points out in his reenactment. Very little of this fight went down the way Zim says it did.
Ultimately, whatever happened, Zimmerman was certainly capable of the contortionist act required to draw his gun. And he was on his feet quickly after that, per the witness accounts.
So what upsets you about my question in the last paragraph? If Zim was afraid of Martin, or thought he could be a threat, why did he get out of his car to hunt him? Oddly enough, even Zim can’t answer that question when Serino asked him the same.
Unfortunately, the answer is he wasn’t afraid of him… why? Because he knew he had that gun – the same one that he tells the CVSA officer that he “forgot” he had. pffft… any CCW gun owner who “forgets” he’s carrying should be stripped of that permit on the spot. The height of irresponsibility.
Considering the aftermath – GZ’s blood pressure and heart rate, no concussion, cogency, etc – he had injuries no worse than a late night pub fight. There was no life threatening going on… save for in his mind.
BTW, INRE the “God’s will” bit… Zim is a Catholic, and the fifth commandment that he broke was Thou Shalt Not Kill. I think God’s will would be more likely a wish that Zim was imbued with some common sense.
Since I haven’t watched the fundraiser yet, I’m only going on the hearsay that he has no regrets and would do the same. So apparently, his learning capacity for common sense is seriously defective.
Oh yes.. it seems that O’Mara has confirmed, in a roundabout way, that it is all about fundraising after all.
Mata!!!!! I keep trying to end this discussion but you keep coming back with non-sequiters. May I quote you?
“If Zim was afraid of Martin, or thought he could be a threat, why did he get out of his car to hunt him? ”
You’re logic escapes me here. Of course GZ did not consider him a threat at that point in time. Of course with his gun in the holster he probably felt confident. That’s not the point. Please try to get this.
If Zim’s story is true (I know you think its a lie, but just go with me here for a second). At the point where he is punched in the face, startled/shocked/disoriented (take you pick), and then jumped by TM I’m sure at that point he considered him a threat. And I go beyond what GZ believed. I ask myself: “Was he in reality a threat?” My answer is yes he was. Hence my belief that Murder 2 is unjustified.
Now I congratulate you on your fighting skills and toughness but I played HS and college football and Club rugby. Over the course of 18 years I “got my bell rung” quite a few times and was stunned/dazed for a few seconds. I don’t think its unreasonable at all to suggest that GZ was stunned/dazed for a few seconds after getting his nose broken. Why do you feel so compelled to resist acknowedging that simple possibility. Would it be so hard to say:
Layman, you’re right. If TM jumped GZ he probably was disoriented and TM, despite being smaller, was at that moment a true and real threat to him. I just don’t believe GZ’s account. end of discussion.
Instead you go on to the Prom queen stuff and your motorcycle experience. I’m glad you have a hard head, in the motorcycle context, but wish you were a little less hard headed in this discussion.
If you want to “end” the discussion, Layman, then stop asking me questions, as you did in the two comments at 5:32 and 5:40. LOL
So what you want me to do is agree with you, even tho I don’t? Well, that’s the end of the discussion, Layman.
I’ll give you this. *Could* he be dazed? Sure. Anyone could. But the appropriate question in reality is… *was* he dazed? Apparently not so “dazed” he couldn’t get back on his feet so that the fight could move south another 40-45 feet where Martin was killed.
Nah, Mata… what Layman wants you to do is be “less hard headed.” He, like RT before him, has been unable to win the debate based on ideas and evidence so he’s just attempting to get you to give in.
The flailing becomes more and more obvious when the big issues go unaddressed and ignored.
Anyway, back to the topic.
What I find rather interesting is that Z says that he “forgot” he had the gun even though he said in his television interview that he ALWAYS carried his gun except for when he went to work.
Strange that he would suddenly forget that he had something that was virtually always with him.