Jun 08 2007
Those Whacky Hypochondriacs!
I read on a lot of conservative blogs it is time to kiss and make up. LOL! For what purpose? To go back into the mess and come up empty again. I note an old saying for those on the right who think rational calm can come from all this insanity. It goes to credibility and is one of my favorites: “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!”.
I give everyone I meet in life full acceptance from the start. It is who I am. And of course people stumble and can make a mistake and screw up that trust. Once or twice is understandable, we are imperfect creatures But repeated abuse pretty much closes the door. And with so many people out there and so many possibilities to explore – there is not time to go back and re-open those doors, shut for good reasons, unless there is a really, really good reason.
Right now I cannot fathom a single issue this country is facing that either fringe will solve. They cannot solve them because they are inflexible – they are not open to new ideas. There is no more common ground. They cannot trust the impure and the dissenters and those who think outside the dogma. So while I applaud the good intentions, I fail to see the reasoning for a make-up love-fest. Politics is not about acceptance, it is about progress coming out of disparate views. It is about making common cause. There is no common ground to rally around. When diversity of opinions is shunned and people ridiculed for trying to work a compromise, why
go back into that mess again? Looks to be a total waste of time and effort to me.
Update: I think this view is probably a reasonable conclusion to take away from the immigration mess we are now left with:
The partisan blame game was already at fever pitch as the bill was going down yesterday. But to those far removed from the backrooms of Capitol Hill, what happened will fuel cynicism toward a political system that appears incapable of finding ways to resolve the nation’s big challenges.
If Washington cannot produce a solution to the glaring problem of immigration, they will ask, what hope is there for progress on health care, energy independence, or the financial challenges facing Medicare and Social Security? Iraq is another matter entirely.
Iraq is completely out of control of Congress and the partisans – for now. It is up to our military’s determination, the Iraqis determination, and to a large part the bloodlust of al-Qaeda to create a public backlash against them (they make Saddam look good). But the comment is fair and what I predicted. Nothing will get done now that the far right decided to burn everything down to stop the bill. They got what they wanted. It was at a steep price.
“Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”
That is what you saw, AJ, an American populace that had been taken to the cleaners so many times on immigration that they said “no more” and demanded a FAIR bill, not one that pandered to big businesses and foreign voters.
So now you are in a snit because you did not get your way. Has the government collasped? Are all the elites in Washington folding their tents and going home? Is there no way that the immigration problem can be revisited and done in an open and honest manner? According to you, that seems to be the case.
You are a sore loser. And for that I am sorry. But this is not over and to try to drive a back room deal down the throats of American taxpayers because you have a vested interest in IL-legal immigration is just WRONG.
We can reform immigration. We can make it where it benefits the host nation (the U.S.A) and not millions of people who are not willing to work for reform in their own nations. Sorry that you care so little for the Americans that have been harmed by unfettered IL-legal immigration that you would put personal politics before the good of the nation.
This is not over. Millions of immigrants will continue to come to the U.S., LEGALLY and those millions will benefit our nation, as they should.
Get over it. Deal with it. And work to help make the next bill better for THIS nation.
The ABC News/Washington Post poll found that among all Americans, only 29 percent approve of the way Bush is handling the immigration issue. That’s the lowest Bush has ever been on the issue in the survey.
Note, too, that overall approval ratings of the Democratic majority in Congress are even lower than those of the president.
You’re out of step with almost the entire country on immigration reform, AJ. We may all be yahoos, in your view, but the American people are clearly uncomfortable with the “Grand Bargain” and simply don’t trust either President Bush or Congress to establish and maintain border security.
As one who supported the 1986 Amnesty as a ‘once for all’ solution, but with reservations, I have to say that almost all of the negative consequences of the bill its opponents warned of, and almost none of the benefits its proponents touted, were subsequently borne out.
I would favor some sort of regularization – but excluding criminals, gang members and certain others – but only in the context of our having established reasonable (it will never be perfect) border security. And, frankly, I don’t care what the illegal advocates want – they may be here because too many of us hire them, but they have no say in what the American people decide to do about them.
The way for Congress and the President to reestablish the trust necessary for a comprehensive reform to pass, is to demonstrate, by action and not by rhetoric, that they are serious about enforcing the laws on the books – not mass deportations, but simply abolishing sanctuaries, deporting any illegal aliens who come to official notice, and denying them the benefits we provide citizens and legal immigrants.
Do that for a few years, and you’ll have a climate where a comprehensive bill can be passed with enthusiastic support from a broad spectrum of Americans.
R05,
I can always count on your grace and maturity to prove my points. I am not in a snit. This is just cold hard logic at work. The far right is dysfunctional – proven by the fact they do nothing but stop progress and bash Bush and moderates. I guess this is your attempt to repair the burned bridge? LOL! Like I said. The GOP is on the rocks. Now they are trying to brow beat people into accepting them. Yeah, that’ll work!
CATO,
I never supported the 1986 bill because I knew it was a bad idea. So what makes you think you are right this time and I am not? And I frequently fly in the face of mob mentalities, like what happened in Dubia Ports and Harriet Miers. BTW – I also don’t just about all the popular TV shows. I am not with the country on Able Danger, the NSA program (what it means and what happened), and I am not a defeatist on Iraq, like most of the country is. Do you think this worries me?
the real problem with this bill’s were it supporters. they supported it before they read it. bush and kennedy knew they had to keep it that way.
now we have a chance of getting a good bill. border enforcement first–the 854 mile fence approved last october and then the goodies two years later. that’s when they get their temp cards not when the bill is signed.
our government couldn’t even handle one million passport requests from US citizens with perfect id’s. but in the same breath they say they could handle 10-20 million illegals and do a 24 hour background check on each. you can’t make up stupidity like this–it has to be taught.
everyone of the dems and the standard 10 repubs are against border enforcement. it was a great day for border enforcement advocates.
Na-nah-naah-naahhhh…..
The patriots won, the traitors lost.
It’s that simple.
/dan
P.S.
Apparently, we still have a democracy not a monarchy (George the 2nd…)
AJ, my grace and maturity seems to far exceed yours. Not once, never, have I tried to insult you are call you names. If you are offended by the term “snit” I suggest you revisit some of your own posts where you have lamblasted those who did not agree with you.
You drew first blood and there are those of us who disagreed with you that could have come back with a scortched earth attitude but instead, we presented legitimate questions that you refused to answer.
No, much to your dismay, the GOP is not on the rocks. The donations to individual state GOPs is climbing. If you judge the party by the response to the RNC, you are using false data.
I, and others, presented points that should have been discussed but were ignored by you. You wanted us to buy the farm without knowing the cost of the payments or the price of the farm. We refused and now, immigration has truely been brought to the forefront of the awareness of this nation and will have to be dealt with. No, your precious illegals will not be given (another) amnesty but there will be immigrants who continue to contribute to our nation and this time the deal will be above board.
You painted all of us who had questions about this bill with a broad brush (immigration hypochondriacs, far right wingers, etc.) but nothing could have been further from the truth. Like Kennedy, you adopted the attitude that you were so much smarter than the rest of us we could not possibly be intelligent on the issue.
So climb down from your elitist high horse and be thankful that Americans participated in the workings of our government. That a nation that was designed on the will of the people, prevailed and we were not sold out by back room deals and self-serving politicians that think they are soooo much smarter than we are.
Yesterday, I heard Kennedy talk about how his family were immigrants and how they had contributed to this society. Never mind that his own father was one of the biggest boollegging crooks to ever come down the pike. Never mind that his grandfather was a true measure of what a crooked politician looks like. Nevermind that his ancestors obtained their wealth by violating the laws of our nation. If Kennedy’s family is a example of the contribution of immigrants, we are all in trouble. But they are not. There are the Irish coal miners, the Asian rail workers and the German farmers that built this land and did not break the law. They are the example set by immigrants, not Teddy Kennedy’s family.
You were wrong on this bill. I was hoping that your civility would rise, like cream, to the top and you would now advocate a revisit that would be good for our nation. I can see I was wrong.
George W. Bush does what he thinks is right and what is best for the entire country. I would be disgusted with any president who did otherwise. The rancor and arrogance has hit an all time low, imho.
And George W. Bush never engaged in one bit of it. He has been benevolent to all who have personally attacked him. He is class defined. I want to be more like him than any talk show host or TV pundit or any hard right blogger…bar none. He will stand tall when all is said and done. Mark my words.
And maybe a few might want to take a look at nro to see some facts of this bill that have been lost.
Yes, it seems the facts were lost in the mob. And I’ll tell you this, our congreessmen/women are not leaders they are order takers, imho. The mob screams, they take their orders. What kind of statesmen would do that?
Again I ask, who is going to get the broken system called immigration fixed with democrat controlled houses? Anyone have the courage to touch that hot potato? Who would want to for such an ungrateful public?
Thank you, Mr. President, for trying to fix our broken immigration system while enduring personal assaults and attacks on your intentions and character from the left and right. All have been exposed.
AJ,
I have been a reader here for many months but waited until today to join in on the comments.
You and I have been in lockstep on many, many issues over the course of the time that I have been reading here.
On this illegal immigration business though, we disagree. A lot.
When we have comprehensive enforcement of the existing law, and border patrol agents who are not in jail for doing their jobs, and a system in place which will not allow a TB patient to just drive on in, and the fence that has already been bought and paid for is built 100% then we can move forward to address the issue that is before us.
Yes, I agree that illegal immigration is an issue which needs to be confronted sooner than later.
I have to agree with R05 on this one. This deceased legislation was not the right answer for America.
Oh brother. Yeah, the patriots won — meanwhile the epic flood of Mexican immigrants that the patriots were screaming at the rest of us about for over a year (“ILLEGAL ALIEN RAPES PUPPY! OH NOES!”) continues apace. Congratulations, you sure showed us. Now y’all can get back to growling “Build the wall, then we’ll talk” while we wait for Congress to do something else. LOL!
AJ
Again, The immigration deal is not dead by a long shot. As I posted else where this all happened while much of the White Team is in Europe. That trip could not have happened at a worst time.
Bush is tantalizing close to 60 votes. You know all those RINOS that people hate. So we must keep up the discussion
As to common cause. It all depends. If what is caused the base and its advocates on talk radio and the net want to continue the great divorce then what you say will happen. People can not just demonize immigrants, business, and various parts of the Coalition. Can they oppose it on particular issues? Sure but there is ground rules.
Bush knows this issue has to be dealt with this year. The good thing is that finally the anti immigration part of this has been exposed. We are seeing that even at the Corner right now on NRO. Tancredo remarks at the debate have set off alarm bells. Bush also knows that another year of this will destroy us with Hispanic voters long term
I am hopeful that there will be common ground. Bush because of the COnst has a lot of power. THe “base” will need him. IF those voices that hate him wish to declare war on him fine. But I suspect they have underestimated him a great deal. I dont think he os backing down
JH
In 1986, I was persuaded that border security would be sufficiently enhanced for the approach to bear fruit (remember I said I supported it with reservations).
What makes me think I am right and you are wrong this time (and you were right and I was wrong last time) is the experience of the past 20-odd years. The lack of political will to resolved the border security issues and to actually carry out the measures enacted.
There was an interesting article a year ago in the Christian Science Monitor about Eisenhower’s solution to the problem in the 1950s:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html
I share your optimism on Iraq and am generally not moved by popular culture (especially TV) and the mob. What’s striking in the immigration debate, I think, is the way some proponents of the “grand bargain” have conflated widespread opposition to the bill based on border security and rule of law concerns with nativism and racism. I think their case would have been far better made had they stuck to discussing the substance of the concerns raised and foregone the attacks on grounds of nativism.
I don’t think it’s ‘nativist’ in any meaningful sense to believe there is a broad (and fairly inclusive) “American” culture and to insist that anyone who comes here has to sign on for it – if someone prefers another culture, let them live in it.
dbostan:
”
Na-nah-naah-naahhhh…..
The patriots won, the traitors lost.
It’s that simple.
/dan”
Dan that rethoric is part of the problem. Traitors? Sorry I don’t even call my most heated political opponents whicha re usually democrats that in the heat of the momenet
Na-nah-naah-naahhhh…..
The patriots won, the traitors lost.
It’s that simple.
/dan
P.S.
Apparently, we still have a democracy not a monarchy (George the 2nd…)
Soothsayer, is that you?
CatoRenasci:
“I don’t think it’s ‘nativist’ in any meaningful sense to believe there is a broad (and fairly inclusive) “American†culture and to insist that anyone who comes here has to sign on for it – if someone prefers another culture, let them live in it. ”
The problem Cato is the propaganda that says that they are not signing up for it. In my area of North Louisiana they are assimilating. In other areas they are assimilating. We even see assimilation happening at great speed from those that came in 1986. What must be rememebered is that the Problems of LA and the Valley of California are not indicative of the entire Country. In fact what problems that are there are indicative of things that are far removed from assimilation and immigration problem.
BrownGreenGold,
Welcome. The problem is there is no comprehensive reform. None. There is no perfect bill. Waiting for a perfection that will not come is not a plan. It is quiet surrender.
biglsusportsfan:
Much of the assimilation question relates to the notion of critical mass – if you have a sufficiently large group of immigrants from a particular background, who do not have significant pressure and incentives to assimilate, and who come from a culture which is openly hostile to the United States (which is true of Mexico, but less so of other Latin Americans, whose anti-Americanism is less profound), and who are easily able to maintain their cultural ties to the home country, the group will not assimilate and you will have long term problems.
In (for example) North Lousiana, I’d be willing to bet that immigrants from Latin backgrounds are (i) not primarily Mexican and (ii) not in sufficient numbers that they have no incentive to assimilate.
That has not been true in Southern California and the Central Valley for a long time. Unless the problem is solved in and for California — however much you think of it as the land of fruits and nuts — we will not successfully solve the immigration problem.
It might not be an unreasonable approach to a limited plan of amnesty (once the borders are secured) to take into account whether the illegal immigrant has already demonstrated a commitment to full assimilation — such as moving to a predominantly non-immigrant area, learning English and generally assimilating to American cultural and political norms) or whether the immigrant has remain in a Spanish-language ghetto and has not learned English or otherwise assimilated to American political and cultural values.
In that regard, the respect for the rule of law is critical. Unless you have actually spent time in Mexico, and tried to do business there (as I have), you have no idea how pervasive the cultural of corruption, the class system, and the disparities of wealth are. The primary reason so many Mexicans want to come here is that the society is such an utter failure for many of its people.
I want people that are complain against AJ to do one simple thing. Please. IF you are concerned about Govt in general and the GOP do this.
Over the next few days many people here will receive vast amounts of direct mail talking about how they won on the immigration fight. But notice that they will ask for even more money to keep up the fight. If you donate then notice what else comes in your mail box. Do yall take a look at it? SOme of that is real black helicopter stuff. Tales of the Amero and the NAU and other fooliness.
Then do this. Sign up for free at Guide star. Guide star is a place. http://www.guidestar.org/
Guide star is a place that keeps track of all the IRS forms for all these non profit advocay groups. When you get one of these mailings or a email research the organization there. You will notice precious little money is going to the cause. Researh the board of directors and you will find they are also behind the various other groups that send you Direct mail.
THis is no conspiracy issue but people making a buck. The immigration issue is a cash cow that keeps giving. There are reasons why people want this issue unresolved.
So the hard right gets what they wanted nothing, no progress, nada, nyet, etc. Enjoy your nothingness.
And I, a life long, single party voting Republican have been labled a traitor, un patriotic, destoyer of the USA. In all these years, I have never been called that by the left. I think Soothie in all his/her obnoxiousness now makes more sense then the right. I now feel obligated to check everything that now comes out of right, carefully.
I trusted you all. Now, I am very suspicious of you.
Just to stir AJ up a bit more:
Theodore Roosevelt’s ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
Theodore Roosevelt 1907