Jan 26 2007
A Plant In A Teapot?
The Blotter news blog is claiming that UK Police discovered a critical clue in the Polonium 210 trail that criss-crossed London last fall. But it took over a month after the fateful poisoning for that supposed clue to the death of Alexander Litvinenkp to show up:
British officials say police have cracked the murder-by-poison case of former spy Alexander Litvinenko, including the discovery of a “hot” teapot at London’s Millennium Hotel with an off-the-charts reading for Polonium-210, the radioactive material used in the killing.
A senior official tells ABC News the “hot” teapot remained in use at the hotel for several weeks after Litvinenko’s death before being tested in the second week of December. The official said investigators were embarrassed at the oversight.
Emphasis mine. First off, it is clear this tea pot WAS NOT under police evidence control since it was in use until mid December sometime. But like the tea cup, it is supposedly very ‘hot’ – showing a significant amount of Po-210. But this is just the same problem, physics-wise, as with the tea cup reporting – it is too hot to have been the likely source of the poisoning of Litvinenko. It is hard to tell, because we do not know Litvinenko’s dosage, but it seems to me the pot and the cup are still many times more contaminated than possible to be the vessel to deliver the miniscule amounts of Po-210 to Litvinenko.
The problem is the fact that mircroscopic amounts of Po-210 can kill, but these same amounts could never scar or permanently impact porcelain containers like the way the tea cup and tea pot apparently are. Let me use another form of radiation as an example to show the different responses different materails can have to the radiation. Microwaves are another form of radiation which can harm biological tissues. In small, low density amounts they will not harm the body, but at high densities they sure as well can cook up a slab of meat quickly – as can be seen in a microwave oven. That is because the rays excite water molecules and transfer heat energy to them, causing the water to heat up and cook the cells of the meat. Notice that your coffee cup is impervious to the microwaves, allowing your coffee to warm but the cup to show no damage.
Litvinenko was killed by something in the range of 0.5-10 millionths of a gram. That range is 10 – 200 times the lethal limit. While this amount of Po-210 ingested in the body will cook your cells and kill them, this same amount sitting on your skin will not and can be washed off with water, even in solid form. So the small amounts needed to kill are insignificant towards impacting a material like porcelain.
But we can look at pure power levels as well. A gram of Po-210 can generate around 140 watts of energy, which is quite a lot for an amount of material the size of a packet of sweetener. That means that packet of sweetener could light two 60 watt bulbs with some energy to spare. That amount of Po-210 might, and I repeat ‘might’, be enough to actually effect porcelain – but I have my doubts. Porcelain is a very tough material. Ceramics are used to protect the Space Shuttle from the super furnace hear of re-entry. While those are special ceramics, the point is still the same – the material is tough. But I do know one thing for sure. Porcelin is tougher than skin. So how is it an amount that would not kill you if it was on your hand can also ‘mark’ porcelain? It cannot.
Litvinenko’s dosage was, at worse, 10 millionths of a gram. Assuming that dose came from a half a cup of tea and the tea pot held 6 cups, that means the total amount of Po-210 in the tea cup would be 120 x 10e-6 = 1200 x 10e-6 or 1.2 thousands of a gram of Po-210 in the entire pot. This is a reasonable assumption because you can multiply the assumptions by ten in either direction to bound ‘reality’. No tea pot holds 60 cups of tea, so that is out. And one twentieth of a cup of tea is probably the minimum ‘taste’ someone would take (as opposed to the assumed 1/2 a cup we used). These orders of magnitude bound the realistic amounts of Po-210 disolved in the cup of tea.
At 1.2 thousandths of a gram, our nominal estimate, the Po-210 only generates 0.14 watts (round off the 1.2 to 1.0) of energy – total. Multiply this by ten to get the worst case boundary we are still talking about only 1.4 watts in the total tea pot. And in a liquid the energy is still being emitted over all the atoms in the liquid, which are quite spread out when dissolved. The point is Po-210 is like microwave energies. Amounts that would boil human cells wouldn’t do anything to porcelain.
So, stepping back from the physics again, what does this all mean? To me it means a tea pot the registers “off the charts” (as the Blotter reports) for Po-210 could not be the vessel for the amounts seen in Litvinenko. I also wonder how this tea pot showed up at the Hotel over a month after the actual poisoning and did not contaminate a lot more guests with serious levels. We believe the dishwasher was the prime source for most of the people who had slightly elevated Po-210 levels since simply flushing with water can remove the substance many surfaces. But this tea pot looks suspicious to me.
Did someone tip police off so that is why they came back in mid December to ‘discover’ this magic tea pot? Is this where some of the Po-210 I believe was still passing through London on one of possibly three consignments during October? Did the smugglers have a fourth, later shipment come in during November, just in time to be used in a tea pot? If someone could drop Po-210 into Litvinenko’s drink to kill him, what makes police think someone couldn’t do the same thing to a tea pot to frame Lugovoi?
There is no link between this pot and Lugovoi if it has been out in the public being used for a over a month since the poisoning, and at least two weeks since the death of Litvinenko. They have no way of knowing if this pot was contaminated after the poisoning to deflect the investigation. The tea pot is too hot to be the source of Litvinenko’s poisoning, and too convenient to be believable. If the tea pot had shows signs it contained a solution of relative equal dose as that find in Litvinenko, I could buy it. But ‘off the charts’ doesn’t sound like 10 millionths of a gram to me.
Addendum: Let me just get to the bottom line. Since the tea pot was not found for over a month after Litvinenko was supposedly poisoned on Nov 1, then the authorities have no idea when the tea pot was contaminated during that time period. Not a single clue when.
Well, Jerry, a “tea tin” is just the type of container you could stash in your knap-sack, as you pass through customs. To enter England.
Hitchcock would use it. And, then in filming hotel rooms, he’s sweep around with his lens. And, linger on a “spot of tea” products. Even including a silver spoon.
All that’s known, however, is that Litvinenko is dead from radiation poisoning. Some thing this was “administered.” While I believe in was “accidental.” Heck, leave it to the russians! Where chernobyl was also a work accident.
And, russian doctors, because of Chernobyl, have been seeing the results of radiation poisonings for years, and years.
Nope. Not seen in the West. Probably because OSHA has set up safety rules, that even go far beyond wearing hard hats.
As to whatever mischief was “UP,” it’s the bad guys, themselves, who called in Goldfarb. Was Berezovsky being so cooperative when he reached for the phone, and called in a PR agent? Or was he worried?
And, if you were inside the Den of Thieves, now, what would be their major worries?
Goldfarb, in my estimation, was there to offset a billionnaire’s worries that he was gonna be slammed by thedisclosure of “unauthorized” smuggling of a radioactive material. I’m also sure that whatever was there, is all gone, now.
Oh, yes. And, that frightened imam! Spooked by fears of radiating his whole flock. Did it come just from the chatter? Whoever “planned this caper” was none too worried about “exposure.” Since everything was done with lots of money; out in the open And, when the PR blitz started, Scaramella and the sushi restaurant showed up as likely “sources.” Well, that was the work of the bad guys! Still, Scaramella doesn’t seem interested in opening the books on this mad adventure! Only in getting himself out of the limelight.
I’ll presume on the next operation; if there is gonna be one; then the trail will be harder to find. And, 5-star hotel rooms won’t be used, either. But, um, “tins of tea?” That could still be green-lighted.
People who really indulge in tea drinking don’t use Lipton tea bags! I’d bet hotel staff weren’t put off by seeing a guest bringing in their own stash. All that room service had to provide was the POT. Full of hot water. And, empty, clean cups.
And, the reason for the good hotels? They offer the best service. Room service. And, otherwise.
Meanwhile, the truth is buried with Litvinenko. (Well? The truth got buried with Oswald, as well.)
It’s interesting how we’ve learned to laugh at airport security. So that around thanksgiving; at a time when lots of people fly. Word went out that “women had to drink their own breast milk.”
Oh. And, you couldn’t carry your Starbucks container on board.
People got angry. And, I like said, many among us laughed at this strange new ritual being demanded of passengers. Yet, it’s at the very time the po-210 was hightailing it through transit. (No. We don’t know if there’s a trail in DC. Because that information hasn’t been slipped out to the press.) But we do know someone whose name sounds like “smells” was in DC. And, Goldfarb is an American PR agent. With “that” call placed here. We also know Turki, the ambassador with “gold connections.” Was asked to leave. And, he left pronto-tonto. Even though he had diplomatic immunity. He got OUT as fast as whoever kicked him, managed to place that kick on his butt.
But we never know why.
Seems our government accepts, and takes for granted, that our best defenses is not to explain to passengers WHY there’s suddenly this “new rule.” Only that it fell into place. And, even a nursing mother wasn’t beyond suspicion.
Well, who do ya call when you need to buy a “clue?”
Jerry,
It’s not my fault physics is not one of your strong suits.
😉
AJStrata
Hey, I thought my spallation explanation for the mercury trail was pretty ingenious, albeit learning on the fly:
http://strata-sphere.com/blog/index.php/archives/3154
Drduge is running the headline on the tea being the poison. The way Livinenko got killed. Which just shows ya the media takes what Goldfarb feeds it.
And, Berezovsky hired “the best.”
Doesn’t make a good case though for the “cause.” Only that the media holds the horn. And, Scotland Yard couldn’t find its collective ass, using two hands. Sacco & Venzetti, however, were remembered for being railroaded, more so that for being guilty. That miscarriage of justice, done by the media, also lasted a long time.
For all we know? The media loses steam. And, lawyers are still not respected. Or, like the old joke goes: “You heard about the lawyer and the skunk that got runover? There were skid marks in front of the skunk.”
Genlemen,
the whole discussion has no sense because that media does not provide you with the background information. Both stories, the teapot in the hotel room (not bar) and a mysterious 4th man, originate not from the police but from Gordievsky in an interview with a Russian daily Moskovsky Komsomolets. But you never read about that in US and UK media. The story of the “real poisoner” dying in 3 years from cancer is also an invention of Gordievsky. He is a “senior official” in the ABC News report. Well, he is, retired, a MI6 agent. Gordievsky had to admit during the interview that in was just his private theory, and full of contradictions, and it has nothing to do with the police investigation.
Ermit: What’s a “Komsomolets?” Is it a rank?
And, M16 was home to Kim Philby, and his 4 pals. Came as close as the soviets could, to a total takeover of British intelligence. Was also the reason MacArthur’s plans in korea were always avaiable to the russians, BEFORE they were executed. Including the fact that truman HATED MacArthur. And, bought into the UN’s “stalemate.” As did Nehru. So the diplomatic pouches have been run against the USA, since 1948.
The “plant” in its original, is the work of Goldfarb. Seems the media is purchasable. The “right” people. For “money.” Like a distorted box of Clue.
In America, this “game” is now at trial. Where the media players (heavy with NBC heads: Andea Mitchell, Russert) have played with the Plame “game.” But it was to TAKE OUT BUSH, from office. This didn’t happen in 2004. So what exists now are CYA attempts. And, Fitzgerald “case” which went off track as soon as he decided he didn’t have to charge anyone with leaking Plame’s name. (But that’s what was supposed to be FOUND.) The original indictment will not be shown to this jury!
Then, you can look at what men with access to the media do when they get into trouble. WOODWARD? He tried to push Fitzgerald away from Libby. He said he got the information EARLIER than Fitzgerald’s time line indicates. AND, he says it was knowledge held by reporters.
Seems so odd that reporters wouldn’t report the news. But would work to take out this president. And, notice: NOT JUST DAN RATHER!
Of course, it should be interesting to see Judith Miller on the stand. The woman got screwed by Fitzgerald. And, sent to jail. When he lied to Judge Tatel. NO PENALTY.
Have you noticed how Nifong lied to the judge? And, the Duke professors came out and also attempted to disparage the Lacrosse Students? You think anyone’s getting nervous over there? You think Duke Law School is a condendah? Worked hard to be “just like haarvard.”
We’ve yet to learn what happens when the “brand” gets to lose value.
And, Martha Stewart took her wallet off the table because she thought the appeal, even if her jail sentence was vindidated, WASN’T WORTH THE COST! In her fashion, she slapped the lawyers. And, I agree with her. She couldn’t buy anything that would be worth the money.
Libby? Lots of people have sent him money.
And, we still don’t know about the books, ahead. (Or if the President will just “free” the papers. Removing all their “secrecy seals.”) Why not? He’s a man of action. And, he knows WHY the media thought they’d get Kerry elected on this crap.
The left was laughing, first. That’s all you know.
And, Litvinenko died from MULTIPLE EXPOSURES to radiation. Just like the folks, who came in to put out the Chernobyl fires, did.
The only gripe that I have with putin is that he doesn’t let the information regarding lots of chaps who’ve died from radiation poisoning in russia, come out.
Doesn’t mean that imam in London wasn’t totally freaked out. I’d bet that Litvinenko’s coffin was kept in the parking lot BECAUSE there are muzzy stories about beards that fell out. Radiation poisoning? I bet it was in the chit-chat. And, while martyrs are found who will put on the bomb belts that the mosque keeps away from prying eyes; this same truth is not available to “containers” that contain radioactive materials.
None of us know why.
None of us know if it was easy to carry po-210 through various customs officials.
None of us know what’s gonna happen, over time, to the stewards and stewardesses who work for the airlines Litvinenko and friends used. Because just like the hotel staffs; where residue of po-210 was found. It seems people were on board these planes (I think the count was 36,000), while the alpha particles were “hot” and floating around.
I’m not so sure anyone who realizes they could have been exposed, feels all that much confidence in their governments, either.
And, then? When you look at the media bitches; what if they’re told to run these stories as a “comfort to those who worry about dying from cancer during the next few years?”
How does Goldfarb get his cooperation? YES. He knows who runs the companies. He knows whom to call when he lifts his phone.
As to “secrets” it turns out the media is hot for them, too. Not to divulge them. But to be hits on the party circles they travel.
Ya now why? Nobody in the media cracks a whip, or breaks kneecaps, when you got, let’s say, to Andrea Mitchell’s house, by invitation. And, you rub shoulders with the hoi poloi.
Lincoln’s wife was the one who made this discovery, initially. During the Civil War, she’d entertain 500 chosen guests at the White House. And, to be invited? It meant you “had arrived.” And, these people are gossips, among themselves. But they love to think of themselves as more important than those who don’t gain entry into their “circle.”
This stuff has more to do with “celebrity” than anything else.
And, it’s worth money on K-Street, too, to be an “insider.”
Bush? He almost ruined DC. Because he doesn’t drink.
Kerry, in the minds of many in DC was gonna land in the white house. And, now? They think the same of hillary. While to most of us this happens only when pigs fly.
Ditto, for the tendencies of some stories to have legs.
And, “legs” if you’ll notice, took Libby by surprise.
Litvinenko’s death keeps getting fanned as an assassination, only due to the clout Goldfarb has. And, it’s the reason Berezovsky called him. And, I’d bet every month, so far, Goldfarb gets more money from his “source.” While the truth is free. So it doesn’t pick up steam.
Brad Pitt will play Litvinenko, I guess. But he hasn’t been able to sell Babel. To the insiders, it doesn’t matter.
Litvinenko died through A COMEDY OF ERRORS.
I don’t know anything about physics, but I have a degree in Russian studies and know how Russians make tea. And I know the KGB will poison someone in a New York minute. And that they can be bunglers.
AJ doesn’t know how Russians make tea, so he is equating the teapot and the cup.
Russians don’t make tea like Americans do. They make concentrated tea called “zavarka†in a teapot and then put a VERY LITTLE bit in a cup and pour a LOT of hot water into it. The water is called kipyatok. The ratio is like 1part zavarka to 9 parts kipyatok.
I don’t know if they would do it that way in an English hotel unless they had a samovar of hot water, but Russians are EXTREMELY picky about doing their tea this way; so they might. They think drinking a cup of tea made with just tea and water is really gross.
They really insist on the boiled water.
So the teapot could be a lot stronger with polonium than the cup because of all the hot water.
(I left this on an earlier polonium post, but maybe nobody will see it there.)
Not my fault you don’t know how to make Russian tea, AJ:)
Instapundit is running the link. And, Glenn Reynolds then notices that “putin gets a pass.”
While I notice NO HOTEL IN THE WORLD buys teapots one at a time in an antique store! Every POT at the hotel stands a very good chance of being the same, as every other!
And, this pot is HOT! And, had been in use by other guests! HOT! Hmm? Anybody else sip and get it followed by vomiting, and their hairs falling out?
It seems “railroading” (which isn’t a new activity for the media), is on track.
But I’m not convinced Litvinenko was poisoned.
I’m also not convinced Kennedy was shot by a single bullet, that took off, hitting him more than once. In front of and in back of his head. And, then went through Connelly. To come out “clean.” (Since it was found on Kennedy’s stretcher.)
But the media is fanning this story.
Still, since the warren commission’s fiction, it seems governments run amiss of truthful details. Leaving stories out there to fester. Till the truth comes along, and blows the lies away.
E. Howard Hunt just died. But coming in May will be his last book, that got to his publisher’s before he passed away at 88. In it? He’s gonna say LBJ “knew.” Are you surprised?
Of course, it’s not easy to give someone MULTIPLE EXPOSURES to poison. Unless you’re the wife. Dropping rat poison into your husband’s food, over a period of time.
HOWEVER, is said wife went out and also bought lots of life insurance? My mom used to tell me that it paid to make sure you, yourself, carried LOTS of life insurance. Because the police could be incompetents. But insurance companies? They work hard to keep money away from criminals. And, they’re good at detective work.
Maybe, what’s missing is that no insurance company has to pay out any claim on Litvinenko? Because if they were there? The truth would be OUT already.
But it seems Glenn Reynold’s link will get mileage. Maybe, people just want to put this story to bed, already? Or, maybe people want to see if they can get putin lynched on it? While getting away with murder is nothing new to the KGB!
For it to be the teaPOT? You’re gonna need staff coming down sick.
The same is true about the planes. One is still kept out of service. And, when I saw the article, it said there had been a total of 36,000 passengers riding on the “hot seats.”
And, even if you think the only way “in” is through Litvinenko’s mouth, he could have been a nose-picker, accustomed to swallowing his boogers. The tea story has too many holes. Sure, it works for incompetent police detectives, who want solutions from the MacGuffins.
But the ONE OUTSTANDING TEA POT is standing out because it’s HOT. Not because you can place it in the room with Litvinenko. Or place a time stamp on it, as to when it got HOT. (If this was happening in America? By now you’d have lawyers lined up to sign up staff to sue the hotels! Just like you do when planes crash; and the first calls to families come from lawyers. Or you didn’t know that fact?)
Snapple. My grandma told me that a SUGAR CUBE was placed in the mouth by russians rich enough to afford them. And, tea was sipped through a cube.
Maybe, Litvinenko sipped his tea through a sugar cube stuck in his mouth? By mistake, he picked up the po-210 laced sugar cube?
We still don’t know HOW the contraband got carried around.
Or even why Berezovsky’s OWN men would be hot to kill Litvinenko. Who was under them in terms of importance. Blackmail, my foot.
It wasn’t a sugar cube. It was boogers.
AJ–
Carol has babbled so much I am afraid you may miss my explanation about how Russian tea is made. It might be relevant.
In light of the recent revelations that there are smugglers and sellers of weapon’s grade uranium; why would there not also be smugglers and sellers of polonium? The two go together in the production of a basic nuke.
I think AJ’s polonium smuggling scenario is most likely correct.
Soothsayer
Quite frankly your logic su**s. I am a nuclear engineer who can do physics equations in my head.
Go back to school little one we only have big boys here.
AJ–see above how to make Russian tea–this is perhaps of interest.
I don’t think a polonium smuggler would be drawing attention to himself by dissenting activities.
People like Litvinenko and Gordievsky must be cooperating with the British intelligence. The British sneaked Gordievsky out of Russia and gave Litvinenko asylum.
I think these investigators are about to make charges, so they probably have their facts. The British don’t allow too much discussion of evidence in the papers.
There are so many holes. And, so little curiosity.
Why putin and Berezovsky ordering the “hit?”
Was Litvinenko the only man in the room sipping tea? A russian wouldn’t get suspicious? Did you see how fast Litvinenko pointed at scaramella? Because all scaramella did while he scarfed raw fish, was to sip from a bottle of water? Seems to me Litvinenko wouldn’t be the “only one sipping from a pot of tea,” if others in the room said “no thanks.”
At the sushi place? Sure. He took Scaramella there. But you know Scaramella didn’t like raw fish. How come the restaurant, chosen, wouldn’t have satisfied both men as a place to eat?
Berezovsky is the guy who is using Goldfarb. To point at putin. With skills like this, putin could have taken out Bush! (You mean he wouldn’t enjoy upsetting America’s government? What would Bush know? He’d get sick. His hairs would fall out. And, our media would go to great lengths to say Bush was ill. Not poisoned. You don’t think so?)
How come there’s no suspicion that Litvinenko stole “product,” and found himself another buyer? Did he think this could slip out, unnoticed? How the heck did he contaminate himself, repeatedly?
Why not think he found someone “extra” on the side? He wanted to be buried as a Chechnyan. And, his dad approved. He could have had his dad working the Chechnyan angle. You just don’t know!
A roomfull of smugglers in a 5-star hotel. And, tea is ordered from room service.
Accidental spills? Or a magician in the room with a “slight of hand” trick? That fooled Litvinenko. Till he got sick.
And, it’s Berezovsky who hires Goldfarb! He’s also probably paying Litvinenko’s hospital bills. Not the ones in England, with their socialized medicine. BUT THE ONES PROMISED. Did he tell Litvinenko all about Swiss clinics, where miracles are done? You could get a new liver. Or a bone marrow transpant. With connections like that, Litvinenko didn’t fool around. And, then he died.
At some point, in the “sales marketing” campaign. Did Litvinenko “talk” to this mosque’s imam? The one who freaked. Did someone who handled Litvinenko’s “treasure” suffer from having his beard fall out?
I know. Nobody asks questions. And, some of you just laugh. So eager to buy the media’s story. Just like Glenn Reynolds.
Not me. And, yes, even if I make you laugh, I hope laughter leads to epiphanies. Sometimes, it does.
AJ–
You write, “Since the tea pot was not found for over a month after Litvinenko was supposedly poisoned on Nov 1, then the authorities have no idea when the tea pot was contaminated during that time period. Not a single clue when.”
Wouldn’t the decay of the radiation give a clue? Probably it was tested and had decayed the same as the teacup. Of course, it may have been more contaminated.
Snapple
Decay chains are known and irreversible. They give no clue of when they first started in a place or time, they only give you a level of activity that you can back calculate to an original strength.
It is the nature of the beast.
They know what the decay chain was when Litvinenko died..and can calculate what it would be when the pot was found if it were from the same PO and –let me take a stab here–they did that calculation and it fit.
Clarice, more details will keep filling out, and here’s a very big hint at that being the case:
http://www.hpa.org.uk/hpa/news/articles/press_releases/2007/070119_polonium.htm —
an announcement from the UK’s Health Protection Agency, which links to a new HPA website announcing a conference detailing their response to polonium-210 in London
http://www.hpa-events.org.uk/hpa/templates/sub/thome.csp?pageID=6887&eventID=31
About the conference
The death of Alexander Litvinenko from radiation poisoning, and the risk that members of the public might have been exposed to radiation, was an unprecedented event in the UK. The Health Protection Agency’s response to the incident brought together specialists from a wide range of fields in an integrated national response. The aftermath of the incident lasted many weeks and required the Agency’s response to be sustainable. […]
and what it will cover
http://www.hpa-events.org.uk/hpa/templates/sub/tOtherPage.csp?pageID=7067&eventID=31
Programme
The conference programme will cover key issues surrounding the public health response to the Polonium-210 incident, providing valuable lessons in preparation for future emergencies.
Topics will include:
How the Health Protection Agency led the public health investigation
Assessing the risk to the wider public
Monitoring the level of contamination at different locations and assessing the risks
Identifying those who may have been at risk and contacting them
Testing, analysis and interpretation of results from samples
Informing the public and the media
Working with the Government and other organisations
International cooperation to ensure the protection of the health of the public
Operational management.
The detailed programme will be available on this website shortly.