Dec 21 2006
Marina Litvinenko Speaks Out
The Russian news outlet Kommersant has the chilling recollections of Marina Litvinenko regarding the illness and death of her husband. It is a gruesome reminder of what the wrong material in the wrong hands is capable of doing. And the path to death was a terrible one, that is clear. It is a must read that, for us Americans, sends a shudder regarding medical care in the UK. The fact is Litvinenko was put off by medical services for many days by symptoms that would have landed him in a hospital under observation immediately here in the US.
There are some interestnig segments in the recoillection worth mentioning because thery could reflect on whether Litvinenko suspected what was happening:
On November 1 Sasha and I decided to have a family dinner in honor of the anniversary of our move to England. Sasha came home and didn’t even stop by to see Ahmed [Zakaev], the way he usually does. He went upstairs, checked some information on the internet, and then we had dinner together.
This is a very interesting version of events. Supposedly Litvinenko did talk to Zakaev (the Chechen leader in exile) since he got a ride home with him from his meetings in London. Did he stay over? No, but he definitely talked to him on the ride home. Or did he? And why go out of the way to mention this, except that it would be out of character for Litvinenko to not end his days meeting with Zakaev? Why is she bringing this point up?
And Litvinenko seems to be trying to dismiss his illness to his wife, even after a night of throwing up:
For a little while he looked a bit better, but he didn’t stop throwing up. It was so strange. And he kept trying to make jokes about it. He would come back from the bathroom and say, “Marina, something’s wrong, this is so weird. They’ve just dunked me in the toilet.” Can you imagine?
Once in the hospital the Litvinenkos kept thinking about why this was happening, and occassionally Alexander would mention the Millenium Hotel meeting. But around his wife he would then try and change the subject:
Those two meetings on November 1 that are being talked about so much now, he thought they were kind of strange. Strange because the meeting with Mario [Scaramella, an Italian businessman with whom Alexander Litvinenko met in a sushi bar on November 1] was absolutely inexplicable. Why? Sasha said that Mario had gotten everything he gave him through the internet. So Mario could have sent it all to Sasha by email. Sasha said that Mario was acting oddly, like he was really nervous and confused. The second meeting, with Lugovoi and Kovtun (Russian businessmen Andrei Lugovoi and Dmitry Kovtun, whom Litvinenko met in the bar of London’s Millennium Mayfair hotel), immediately struck him as suspicious, but for some reason he chased his suspicions away. I don’t know why. He kept trying to find explanations… Maybe he thought that he would figure it out by himself later and didn’t want to discuss it with me.
We all know Scaramella is a very strange person in this mystery, and easily someone to keep an eye on. But the first thing that jumped out at me was the fact Litvinenko seemed in denial regarding the meeting at the Millenium Hotel. Note that it appears the reporter added the information that this was in the Pine Bar. But chronologically it seems this meeting was after the Scaramella meeting. If there were two meetings with Lugovoi and Kovtun then it is possible Litvinenko was trying to shield his wife from the work he was engaged in. Who knows. But it is interesting when the meeting comes up he continues to be in some kind of denial. Then there is the mystery man who shows up at this business meeting (which I doubt was held in the crowded bar right before the big game)
Kommersant: At that second meeting, the conversation was about the beginning of some kind of joint venture, some kind of business?
Yes. As I understood it, many Russians open businesses in England, and British people have questions for them – who are they, are they really who they say they are. They needed to check some information.
Kommersant: So the conversation was about some kind of consulting?
Absolutely, yes.
Kommersant: And they wanted to work together on it?
As I understood it, yes. I know Lugovoi. Kovtun appeared on the scene about a month before all this happened. I hadn’t heard anything about him before. Sasha did say one thing – that some guy he really didn’t like had turned up with Lugovoi. I can’t say for sure what we were talking about the time, but that was the phrase Sasha used. He said that he hadn’t liked the man because he had said something about how he doesn’t give a damn about anything in life except money.
This is very strange indeed. Sokolenko was with his family when he supposedly ran into the three men at the Pine Bar, so I doubt in the brief contact he had on the way to the game this kind of impression would be left. But again, if there was an earlier meeting and another person showed up, then that would be a different story.
And we can put to rest the notion Lugovoi was not associated with Berezovsky. Not only did Marina know Lugovoi for a long time, she met him once at an event I am sure only close associates of Berezvosky would be attending:
Lugovoi called once on my mobile after Sasha’s death. He left a voicemail saying, “Marina, this is Andrei Lugovoi. Everything that happened strikes me as very strange. I’ll do everything I can to figure it out.” I met Andrei only once, at a birthday party for Boris Abramovich [Berezovsky].
So Lugovoi not only meets with Berezovsky, he attends his parties as well.
But then things get really bizarre. Litvinenko had two poisonous elements in his ssytem – Thallium and Polonium.
So first the diagnosis was thallium, and then polonium?
Yes. His thallium level was three times higher than normal. And polonium… Sasha was checked for radiation, but it turned out later that the machine they had used only checked for gamma radiation coming off the skin. He had alpha radiation, which has a short wavelength [though not as short as that of gamma rays], and it was internal. That kind of radiation only showed up on a special and very complicated urine test.
Thallium is another by-product of Polonium manufacturing from Bismuth:
Subsequently it was reported that traces of thallium are commonly found with polonium: “A tiny amount of thallium, a common impurity in polonium and a poison in its own right, was also found (in Litvinenko’s body fluids). Polonium is typically made by bombarding bismuth-209, a heavy metal similar to antimony, with neutrons to make bismuth-210, which rapidly decays into polonium-210. But bismuth can also decay into thallium-206 — which is why polonium might have traces of thallium as well.”[17] But 206Tl has a very short half life of minutes so it is unlikely that any would have been present by the time is was brought into the UK. It is more likely that stable lead would be found as an impurity in the polonium used.
Well clearly something is not right given this Wikipedia entry and what was seen in Litvinenko’s pathology. The Thallium was showing up days after the poisoning and weeks after entry into the country. This is truly a complexing set of facts. I cannot find Thallium in Polonium decay process that doesn’t last more than a minute and a half. So was this stable Thallium mixed in?
I also find the fact that Litvinenko’s burns showed up in his mucus membranes all over his body a telling clue which indicates to me he inhaled the material as well as ingested it:
Later I was told that not only the mucus membranes in his mouth, but everywhere in his body were horribly inflamed and covered with blisters.
I am sure those with a medical background who read this blog will correct me, but it would seem Litvinenko ran into a cloud of this stuff when he was poisoned. This would explain the cigarette theories which were very prevelant in early reporting. I would expect to see inflammation in all the sweat ducts and eyes if the material was flushing through the bodily fluids, not just the mucus membranes. If I am right, it would seem difficult for this to be a poisoning. And the lack of poisoning to Litvinenko’s family, given days of throwing up before going to the hospital, would seem to also be inconsistent:
Kommersant: Were you tested?
The next day. And we already have the results, with documents certifying that Tolya, Sasha’s father, and other people who were close to him suffered no significant contamination. I am carrying a definite dose of polonium, but for the moment it’s not life-threatening. I can’t feel anything at all. They told me that my risk of getting sick is maybe one percent higher than normal.
I would assume that dealing with his illness the way it was he should have contaminated the place quite a lot. Then there is another aspect of this entire event which I felt was they key problem – the deliberate and overt PR campaign surrounding his illness:
When he told me that he wanted there to be a letter and a photograph, I was appalled. I definitely didn’t want him to be photographed in that state. I said, “Sasha, think about it, you’ll get well and then you’ll have to see these photographs.”
But he wanted to be photographed?
He was certain that both a written document and a photograph were necessary. And now I understand that it was only when the photograph appeared that everyone figured out that something terrible was going on.
This is where the story is inconsistent. Marina says they believed he would survive this ordeal. But clearly the picture and letter were designed to be released after his death. So it seems Litvinenko continued to hide his situation from his wife as he had done for years, not telling her what he was into and what was happening. The PR firm was brought in by Berezovsky, as was Goldfarb. Litvinenko and Berezovsky must have spent precious final moments of Litvinenko’s life planning the whole thing out – the PR campaign, the interviews, the timing.
Very interesting. This immediately struck me:
“But they why did they wait for six years? And why did they choose such an exotic weapon?
I don’t know. I can’t understand it at all. Thinking logically, they were counting on no one finding out. They thought Sasha would die before anyone could figure out what killed him. That’s almost what happened. If he had died any earlier, the special urine analysis wouldn’t have been done, and without that test nothing could have been pinned down. ”
I am wondering if this could be true. Surely, there must be methods to detect polonium from blood, and surely they must have set aside urine samples daily?
It would have been in all his body tissue, not just urine. After death they could use tissue samples. They wouldn’t even need to isolate polonium chemically. Once he had died, then there is no time rush so once you detect the alpha particles you just keep watching and note the decay profile. After a couple of weeks you would be able to tell that it was polonium simply from the profile of how the radioactivity was decaying.
In other words, once you note the rate of radioactive decay, you can eliminate elements with shorter and longer half-lives allowing you to zero in on the proper isotope.
Also, the Brits are saying it is going to be a miracle if they aren’t attacked this Christmas. In addition to other plots, they are looking for 18 suicide bombers.
Link
Thanks for the link. This is just too scary: “British police have been quietly carrying out a series of key arrests as they continue to track at least six active “plots” tied to what they call “al Qaeda of England.”
Officials said they could not cite any specific date or target but said al Qaeda had planned previous operations during the Christmas holidays that had been disrupted.”
Actually, the scary part is: “”It is not a matter of if there will be an attack, but how bad the attack will be,” an intelligence official told ABCNews.com.”
I’m reading that a fog over Heathrow is keeping causing a great deal of trouble and flights are being canceled for days to come. I guess I’m taking the final step into conspiracy land when I say that this is not a coincidence:
http://www.heathrowairport.com/
That is “ice fog” and is fairly common in Europe in winter. I used to see it quite often when I lived in Germany.
It may be a good thing that Heathrow isn’t operating that much – maybe it will keep out a few terrorists
Oh, I didn’t know that. I don’t even know what an ice fog is, but by the sound of it, I’m hoping I’ll never learn, although I probably do know (since I’m from up north).
However, it seems that BA is harder hit by the weather than other airlines. They’re cancelling all their domestic and it seems most of the European flights (in particular to Paris and Brussels). It seems rather incredible to tell someone flying to Poland on the 20th that she can’t fly there until the 26th. They can’t be sure of the weather is going to keep it up, surely…Personally I think they’re exaggerating an existing problem so that they can minimize the risk and retain their calm. From the Independent:
“In August, BA suffered 1,280 flight cancellations as a result of hand luggage restrictions imposed in the wake of anti-terror raids and arrests in Walthamstow and High Wycombe, costing the company an estimated £40m. Ongoing security restrictions led to two-hour delays at check-in at Heathrow’s Terminal 4 earlier this week, with queues snaking outside into temporary marquees.”
“Yesterday, Mrs Nalbantoglu’s 1.30pm flight to Warsaw was cancelled. After waiting at Heathrow for two hours, she was told by BA that she would not be able to fly until 26 December, despite Polish airlines continuing their flights.”
The story of the wife is very different than we were led to believe at the beginning – the impression I got was that he went to the hospital the first night at 7:30 pm. – but per this story it wasn’t until several days later. Also his hair started to fall out right away – “I patted Sasha’s head, and hair came off in my hand”
Lizarde1, I think that she’s saying that it fell out on the 12th day, just like it would on a chemotherapy patient?
Thanks Lost – I realized that as I read further in the article – that it was around day 12. Still didn’t we think he had gone to the hospital the first night?
There must be some threat that they aren’t talking about to BA – otherewise why would the Polish flights still be flying – how strange.
“thallium level was three times higher than normal.”
That wouldn’t be enough to make someone sick. I know of places where drinking water has a thallium content high enough to cause a reading of only 3x normal, same with arsenic and any number of other metallic poisons. Also, thallium has an antidote that is well known and fairly easy to obtain. In order to poison someone to that extent, the level would have had to be much higher.
The whole thing about the picture and the letter is suspicious to me too. Hard to put my finger on exactly the right words to describe it but it is as if he wanted to make sure there was the maximum possible dramatic effect … or someone else did if Litvinenko wasn’t really able to make these decisions himself. In other words, maximum utility from Litvinenko’s death.
Would this by chance be Goldfarb? Berezovsky’s lawyer?
The thing with polonium is that if you give, say, half a lethal dose … half the amount required to kill directly by alpha radiation, you still end up killing your target only a few years down the road from laukemia or other cancer (lung if inhaled, bladder if inhaled or eaten).
I also don’t believe he obtained the total dose at once. Judging from the contamination trail of the others involved, they had been exposed to the stuff multiple times and were shedding particles of it from their clothing.
One very simple way for an object to stick and then be shed is by simple static cling. Opposite charges attract. A wool jacket, for example, would have a negative charge. Polonium powder would have a very strong positive charge. Particles would stick to the jacket until the alpha particles had neutralized the charge at which time they would drop off. In other words, the jacket would have a strong field of excess electrons and this would initially attract the polonium dust. The dust would give off alpha particles, each would “grab” two of these excess electrons. At some point the static field becomes weak enoughor possibly even becomes positively charged itself and the particle drops away or is easily shed through mechanical means such as a movement of the arm, sleeve, cuff, whatever.
That polonium reduces static charges could be the very means by which particles would be shed to leave a trail as the particles are first attracted to the static field and then neutralize it.
Britain is under greater threat from rail and vehicle traffic taking the channel tunnel than they are from airline traffic. Airports are generally watched much more closely than train stations and auto ferry points.
On par with Oswald’s wife. Who either didnt’ know he had been IN the CIA. Or she preferred inventing fantasies and staying in America. Who even remembers her now?
I still think Litvinenko had MULIPLE exposures. Not a “single bullet theory” to me. Not here. And, not “there,” in Dallas.
But hokum and SPIN belong to the CIA. Just as all governments use them, too. Truth has taken a holiday.
But to have “multiple exposures,” could mean the “drain” was slight. And, the resultant harm “cumulative.” In other words? You can add this up. To more than one main event.
While it’s also possible, given how the Imam did not want his body in his mosque, fearing spreading radiation poisoning to the crowds in attendance. THEN? What if ALL THE EVIDENCE that remained was put into that box?
So it’s now ALL buried underground.
The body will go back to the Chechnyan’s? Well, WHEN? If the body isn’t in London, then you’ve got new worries. The “merchandise” is in the hands of real killers. People who have already shown you Beslan.
Just like yesterday, if you missed it at Drudge, the USA turns over Ramadi (Saudi territory) to the goons. And, they celebrate by eating a rabbit, live. Disgusting. But that’s the collective mentality.
While all we have to do is count out 132 days. Whatever else was in that box is nothing but lead. You can stir it into paint. Print counterfeits. And, hope people lick their fingers while they count their money.
Now, what if the whole idea was to transfer Litvinenko’s body out’da Londonstan. With the contraband intact. Who knew?
But you’re definitely seeing all the bad guys. And, yes. We’re not gonna be informed of medical outcomes. That usually have people falling one-by-one.
Governments should get out of the CIA inspired business of creating pulp fiction.
The other thing we learned from the interview that I at least did not know was that he did not get sick until sometime after 11 pm – earlier it was suggested it was just after he got home from the meetings – so that it would have been about 3/4 hours after the sushi bar – now it is more like about 6 or more hours after the Millenium meeting – what light that sheds on the timing of the alleged poisining I don’t know but it makes it less likely I think that it was the tea at the Millenium – people were saying before that sickness would occur in the window of 3/4 hours of the poisoning.
Lizarde1,
There is much confusion about how much of a dose Litvinenko ingested. I have heard 100x the fatal dose, 50x the fatal dose, and 10x the fatal dose. 10x a fatal dose would probably not cause sickness right away. It would be some days after the poisoning. 100 or 50 times might be enough. A fatal dose generally results in symtpoms appearing about a month after it is ingested. This is because half of the ingested amount is eliminated nearly immediately through the digestive tract (if ingested orally). The rest is absorbed and begins to do damage. Some of this is eliminated through the kidneys, some of it is reabsorbed and continues to cause damage. It is only after the damage accumulates enough do you see symptoms appear.
An atom of polonium decays into lead and expells an alpha particle. IF this alpha particle strikes a cell nucleus, it causes damage. That orignal atom of polonium is now an atom of lead and can do no further harm. Also, the body can tolerate the loss of a single cell with no problem. Sometimes the damage causes a mutation that results in the cell becoming cancerous but that becomes a long-term issue and not an immediate problem.
As time passes, more and more cells are destroyed and at some point symptoms begin to appear. In order for these symptoms to appear in the hours immediately following ingestion, it would have to be an absolutely massive dose. This is why I feel that his total dose of polonium was accumulated over time and while he certainly may have ingested some at the Millennium Hotel, I believe he had already been exposed to the stuff and had already been experiancing damage before the November 1 meeting.
A 100x dose might be consistant with his becoming ill immediately. The report of him having a 10x dose would be more consistant with someone who had been already exposed to it … chronic exposure. I don’t believe someone ingesting a 10x dose would become ill within hours. I believe it would be a week or two before they became ill as it would take time for cell damage to accumulate to the point where symptoms would manifest.
There is another possiblity … that he was engaged in smuggling … that he was contaminated with polonium in the course of the smuggling… and someone did attempt to kill him with thallium for other reasons which made him ill but it was eventually the polonium that did him in.
Crosspatch,
There is another possibility, his death may have served two purposes:
1) Get him out of the way, for unknown reasons;
2) Prove to the buyer that he was getting authentic Polonium.
Chilling, but possible.
It’s strange that Kovton’s hair MAY have started falling out around early Dec. whereas Litvinenko’s started falling out say around the 12th of November.- close to a month after the Oct 16 get together with K & L. The blisters in the mouth etc. did not show up until mid November also as far as I can tell from the article. It sure sounds like cumulative contamination to me combined maybe with a regular stomach virus of some sort that started the whole thing off or an extra dose of PO somehow Nov. 1. What has become clear is that the only meal that made him sick three to four hours later was in fact the meal he had with his wife.
Hair falling out is an indication of the amount of cellular damage. This increases with not only the amount of exposure but also the duration of exposure. So if two people are exposed at the same time to different doses, the one receiving the higher dose will show symptoms first. But people’s bodies are different. You can only produce general numbers for how well things are eliminated and how people respond to damage. Some people might tolerate it better than others. Some might elimiante things faster than others.
But with radiation damage it is the accumulated dose … the amount and the duration. If Litvinenko had chronic exposure to the stuff, there might be no way to tell for sure how much or even if he ingested any on Novermber 1.