May 17 2006
Olive Branches Springing Up Everywhere
Seems the fevered tempest over immigration may finally be abating on the right. There are too many posts to link to so I will just link to the latest one I read concerning the new perspective. It seems the over the top anger by some has finally forged a coalition of common sense. Rick Moran has a great piece up describing a path forward.
Is it possible to find a middle ground on the right in the immigration debate that can unite both sides and forestall the eventuality of schism and holy war that would lead to disaster at the polls in November for Republicans?
Perhaps. If people were to get off their haunches and sit down like the friendly, rational, adults that we truly are, it may not be too late to salvage something from this mess. Let’s examine what we have in common before looking at where we part company.
My only quibble (and it is only a quibble) is he (and Tony Blankley who he references) attempt to imply there needs to be an order. Do this ‘first’ kind of talk. My suggestion is to jettison that concept right away. We need to pass a comprehensive package and get it all started.
Each plank in the plan will have things that need to be accomplished and they need to be done in parallel. Each will take time. I would guess we could build the fence and barriers along the border before we can get the guest worker program up and the 12 million undocumented workers checked and documented. But don’t kid yourselves. All of this will take years to do. President Bush will definitely leave office with all these efforts in progress. Don’t worry about the order, get them all started so we can get them done as soon as possible.
The 1986 bill proved that giving any side what it wanted right away was a mistake. Because once one of the sides on this issue has what it wants, they have no reason to cooperate.
There will never be enough efforts at enforcement for Michelle Malkin, LaShawn Barber, Tom Tancredo, Polipundit, or other hard-liners to accept the other vital components of a solution to the problem: To wit, higher immigration quotas, fixing a system that has become a refuge for petty tyrants in a bureaucracy, cutting the decent people who are here some slack, and promoting the Americanization of those who come here.
What can be done?
AJ, check out the recent primary results in Herndon VA. , Pennsylvania, N.C. & some others. Then decide which approach to immigration reform is going to keep republicans in the majority in the house & Senate this year. The voters who want tough border enforcement before amnesty are the ones who go to the polls. Also ,the Mexican Governments threat to sue the U.S. in U.S. courts to keep the national guard away from our borders is only going to get us out to the polls in higher numbers. The Amnesty now crowd had better wake up & help convince republican politicians that voting for another 1986 plan will cost them dearly. The democrats who run on enforcement first will defeat the amnesty now republicans.
I heard about this latest development indirectly. My immediate supervisor posted a leftist propaganda video which “proved” our border guards were “Nazis”. Then, I find – to no surprise – what happened.
I would not expect unity on the issue… and frankly, I think what is concerning is not the disunity among the conservatives and the left, but the disunity among the conservatives. (Not that we should force unity or silence debate…)
We need a strong immigration policy. We do not want to allow in armies from China and Saudi Arabia. Yet, at the same time, we know it is in good conscience to keep open borders — “open”, but regulated.
I do not think we need to pour troops into this mess right before hurricane season. I think we need a passive system which works and requires less management. A fence. A wall.
The real problem here, as far as I am concerned, is, one, we have extremely poor regulation of immigration… and, two, Mexico and these other nations.
However, I do think that it is a bragging point to argue that one out of seven Americans is a first generation immigrant. This is what makes our country strong. This is what separates us from Europe. We are a true melting pot. We have not completely fallen to the misguided sins of “multi-culturalism” such as most European countries have, at the same time. We have fallen to a degree, however.
For me, this means that immigration is not on the top plate of problems we are facing today. Foremost, we have a national defense problem. Secondly, we have internal defense problems. We let out violent offenders with a few years to re-offend… while we keep in non-violent offenders for decades. Then, we have budget and governmental oversight issues which need to be dealt with.
With Iran and Venezula on our sides, however [and the Israeli situation]… I genuinely fail to see the importance of these issues… except as points to deliver us from our current nasty reality.
This is not even to mention Sudan and Iraq.
Today, these are our problems. Immigration is not.
The immigration debate: room for middle ground?…
I’ve not commented a great deal about the President’s speech on immigration because I’ve learned from last year’s experience over the Harriet Miers brouhaha and this year’s experience over the UAE port deal that sometimes …
Granmary, you point out a good example but draw the wrong conclusion. Conservatives supported electable candidates who clearly articulated their positions and were able to win primary victory’s over entrenched incumbents. With any luck at all, this momentum will carry them all to victory in the fall.
What do you think would have happenned if conservatives, instead of supporting specific candidates in specific races, simply said “I’m mad and so I won’t vote!” You know what would have happened – the rot would only get worse, and the conservatives would have been marginalized as inconsequential whiners for the next election cycle. (at least)
And just for the record, I wonder if you can name a single elected democrat who is seriously pushing “enforcement first”. Come on, convince me that Hillary Clinton is going to be your go-to gal on this one.
– WWS
WWS, wake up, anyone who was interviewed as to why they voted the way they did give support to my conclusion. Also, you make a big mistake in assuming that the voters who hold my position aren’t going to vote. Just the opposite is true, we are going to keep the House in republican control, as they are on the right side of this issue. Rino’s in the senate may lose, because many plan to leave that slot empty if the Rino has sold out. The Senate does nothing but obstruct anyway, & since the Rino’s vote with the dems, we already have a democratically controlled Senate. There will be no difference, except that future republican candidates will realize they can’t stay in office by currying favor with the beltway elites. Watch the votes of the Red State dems, like Baucus, & Nelson on the ammendments to the bill & compare them to Hagel, Mccain, Lindsey Graham, Chaffee, Collins,Snow, Specter etc. & we will talk about who is more concerned with enforcement of the border in any shape or form. I have paid close attention to all issues over the years, & one thing I have learned is the lesser of two evils is never lesser. The 1986 amnesty bill is a prime example of that. Strict enforcement was in that one also. The amnesty was given, no enforcement was put in place.Which is why we are here today. In hindsight we see that we would have fewer illegals now if nothing had been done then. Once they saw that they could come in illegally & gain amnesty once, why be surprised that they will continue to come illegally? By the way aren’t you glad that the party leaders backed Specter against Toomey in the last Pa. Senate primary? So much for your argument about party solidarity.
The sly poker playin’ Texan wins yet another bluff.
Senate Votes to Build 370-Mile Triple-Layered Border Fence (Drudge). Now if he said that’s what he wanted to do, the pansies in the senate would never have done that. And that is why 6,000 National Guardsmen are going there:To start building.
In 1953 the populaton of China was 500 million. Today it’s 1.5 billion and growing. If the proposed solutions to our immigration problems increase our population by 200 million within a few years, as predicted, we will be where China was 50 years ago. is this what we want for our children and grandchildren? The simple fact is that we cannot allow everyone who wants to immigrate to the US to come here. If we tell all the illegals that they are no longer welcome here, cut off all aid and levy big fines against all who aid and abet (hire, encourage, assist, etc.) them, they will go home the same way they got here. if they can hire Cayotees to get them here they can hire them to take them back.
WWS, Oh & by the way Hillary Clinton is totally unbeievable on anything, but why that question? Are you one who thinks that all we women voters think it would be a nifty idea to have a “woman” President? The only way I would vote for a woman President is if there was an American Maggie Thatcher. I would vote for her in a minute & it would have nothing to do with being a woman, it would be because she was a conservative with backbone. See, I too can move the topic slightly off point.
WWS, my first reply to you seems to have disappeared. the one you see is an afterthought. If the first post doesn’t show up shortly I will re send it.
WWs, Don’t see my reply yet so here goes,again. My conclusions were correct, as supported by those who were asked why they voted the way the did. Didn’t see anything in those responses to support your conclusion. Also, it is precisely the voters who think as I do, that enforcement must come first or it will not come at all. Just like happened in 1986. We will be at the polls in much higher numbers than usual, & we will be voting for our Reps. in the House. The Senators who support enforcement first will be voted for. If the Senate changes hands, it will be just as it is now. We now have for all intents & purposes a democratically controlled Senate. Chaffee, Collins, Snow, McCain, Hagel, Lindsey Graham,& most especially Specter make it that way. By the way the support the party at any cost mentality of the republican pols. assured we have Specter instead of Toomey in the seat from PA. Remind me again why that was a brilliant idea. I think a few dems from Red States will end up having a better position on Immigration than some of the aforementioned Rino’s. Let us wait & see how the votes on the ammendments & then the final bill turn out & we can discuss this more fully. I expect a better voting record from such as Max Baucus, & Ben Nelson than the Rino’s I mrntioned, but we shall see.
This is the second place I have seen this mysterious 200 million number posted. Can someone point me to where that goofy number came from? The entire population of the US is only 298 million. The census bureau is projecting the population to grow by another 100 million or so by 2050. Where is this “200 million in a few years” number coming from? Smells bogus to me. Even if we granted every illegal here citizenship we are only talking about 11 million.
Crosspatch, it is in the senate bill, the guestworker portion. There was an ammendment,thankfully passed today that reduced it from 325 thosand per year with 20% increases every year for the next twenty years. The 20% increase was dropped too, but the President thinks he can get it increased back up to the original # when the house & senate go to conference to get a “compromise” bill. Scary, huh?
Does anyone else think that the illegals marching in Washington as we sit here is a crazy thing to be happening in America? If The President wants to show us that he is serious about enforcement, now might be a good time to send ICE agents out to work. After all The Immigration Agency is headquartered in Washington. And has any Wash. Pol. expressed outrage at the threats of the Mexican Govt.? Just wondering. If the Govt. can inform Mexico of the minutemens locations in order to help illegals break American law, could we pretty please arrest some lawbreakers? Mr. President call Pres. Fox & ask his permission. Would you please do that for the American people?
Granmary,
An amendmant to the Senate bill has already been passed that stripped that portion out. It is limited to 200,000 per year with no increase.
325 thousand per year is one hell of a long way from 200 million. and isn’t really much of an increase over current immigration. The current “family immigration quota”, for example, is 226,000 per year. And even then it doesn’t mean you get a green card. You get a “resident visa” and can apply for a green card (permanent resident) but the minimum wait for even that would be 4 years IF you get one. I really don’t see it as a big issue at all.
Gran:
It is more like 20 million than 200 million, someone can not do math.
This is why I get so irritated with the hardliners.
The entire population of Mexico is 106 million. The entire population of Canada is 33 million or thereabouts. The entire population of Cuba is about 6 million. Where are all these people supposed to be coming from?
I think this is one of those things that got started on the internet and people just repeated it.
Terrye that was based on the immigration authorized rates in the original bill in the Senate. I agree it was totally ludicrous but just pure math. Well saner forces have pervailed and based on admended figures today, we are only gonna take under the revised down number cap as just the population of Mexico you referenced. Don’t ya feel all warm and fuzzy now. Shucks I was hoping they were gonna keep the Cubans in the pot so I would have a better chance of getting some good cigars at a decent price!
Terrye, you are right,but I’m sure you can find a remedial math class in your area. The Senate bill originally calls for 325,000 per year on all the guest worker programs of which there are 79. It includes all the legal immgrant programs. The bill was ammended this afternoon to allow only 200,000 per year. The 325,000 with an increase of 20% yearly for 20 years is where the estimmate came from. The ammendment that passed this afternoon got rid of 125,000 per year& also did away with the 20% yearly increase per year for 20 years. However the Pres. is hoping to get the number back up to 325,000 per year for 20 years when the amnesty bill goes to conference between the House & Senate. So figure 325,000 this year. Next year another 325,000 + 20% =65,000+ 325,000=390,000 next year. The third year would be 390,000 +20%=78,000+390,000=468,000 so your total for 3 years is already 1,183,000. I am sure you can do the math from there through the next 17 years of the program. Also these LEGAL immigrants, which nobody is complaining about will have the right under our system to bring their family members here which pushes the numbers even higher. I have no problem with legal immgration, but tell me if we are this generous in accepting this many legal immigrants, & if as stated ILLEGAL immigrants make up only 5% of our work force why is one of the arguments that our economy needs illegals. Before you get irritated with “hardliners” maybe it would behoove you to get all the facts on any issue you wish to argue.
“I agree it was totally ludicrous but just pure math.”
Anyone have a link to that math? I suspect it is bogus.
Also about 1.5 million of those 11 million are from Asia. Illegals come from all over. Most got in the country with legal visas and just stay after they expire. Student visas, tourist visas, there are about 80 different kinds of visas for people to get into the US. Visas expire and people stay anyway. I still think that simply eliminating catch/release will eliminate the bulk of the illegals.