May 16 2006
This Is NOT America
*** Addendum: I want to be clear that I am all for debate. But when debate is over and an idea has or is being rejected (like the deportment and detainment schemes) those who are serious join back together and move on. I am for strong laws, background checks, the fence/wall and one strike your out (never to get a second chance). Which doesn’t make me ‘moderate’ or ‘pro amnesty’. People need to ask themselves a question about who they want on their side. Someone like me are someone like young Adolph here***
For all those flaming the anti-immigrant flames, let me show you a glimpse into an ugly future:
And he will be lying, again, just as he lied when he said: “Massive deportation of the people here is unrealistic – it’s just not going to work.”
Not only will it work, but one can easily estimate how long it would take. If it took the Germans less than four years to rid themselves of 6 million Jews, many of whom spoke German and were fully integrated into German society, it couldn’t possibly take more than eight years to deport 12 million illegal aliens, many of whom don’t speak English and are not integrated into American society.
There are bridges too far. There is a place anger can take some but most will not follow. In fact there are places that will cause people to rise up and fight. The deranged, emotional basket case that wrote this missed one fact: The Germans didn’t deport or lock up the Jews. They exterminated them. That is how it took so little time to ‘rid’ themselves of their fears and satiate their hate.
The immigration debate has gotten ugly, and it is because some on the right have forgotten they too are responsible for their self control. A lot of good people are signalling to people like this it is time to take matters out of the hands of government. Well, good people go bad. Will America end its days succumbing to the rot of spirit that fell other ‘modern’ and ‘enlightened’ societies? This is un-American, and all the flag waving and patriotic noise will not hide the stench of this.
There is no excuse for this. Absolutely none. I will never vote for or support anyone I believed could sanction this.
Not all conservatives are racists. At least I know I am not.
Yeah… it’s time to put some sunshine into this pit of toxic waste. All of it. No more allowing people to stay on the sidelines.
Either they believe that all people have dignity and value – or they are with creeps like Mr. Day. As far as I am concerned, there is no middle ground.
The counterpoint is obvious. There’s NO Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.
And, there are always going to be people with weird opinions.
America is a melting pot.
If our schools were better, and more demanding, a lot of the pressures would be sidelined.
Heck, if you went to Mexico, and got sick, don’t expect to get treated well. (I read somewhere where an American kid with a broken leg was left without his leg getting set, until his parents wired money.)
Maybe, if Americans WITHHELD their tourist dollars we’d be able to let countries know we’re not doormats. Today, in frawnce, there’s an awareness Americans aren’t buying their wines. Or their whines. Or their cheese. And, that’s a good thing.
I thought Bush was fabulous. And, CNN pretty nasty to run a life feed on what is given to the media as a gift. A chance to set up their cameras, and test their lighting. As Bush does a rehearsal. Instead of turning this into the news.
The MSM is a much worse problem to our democracy than what’s going on at our borders! And, there doesn’t seem to be any changes in sight. Unless knowing that Christianne Amanpour got kicked off of C-BS, while Katie Couric advanced. (Shows ya risking your life as a journalist, to bring stories from Bosnia, or Kabul, made much of a difference.) The MSM is a very lightweight industry. Still doing its harms.
Given all the hostilities lined up against our President; especially because it can get you face time on TV, I think the President did fine.
I agree with Carol. The situation with the journalism trade is a greater threat to our nation than the immigration issue. We need CULTURAL diversity in our media. We need conservatives, liberals, ex-military, ivy league, people like Tim Russert from blue collar backgrounds, all kinds of people in the media.
Journalists want protection for their position in informing the public yet they violate the public trust and would undermine the security of the nation.
If they want special treatment, they need to fulfil a specual responsibility. Beating the liberal political agenda ain’t it.
AJ, I’ve often thought that the anti-immagration forces here were approaching Nazi-like propaganda with their arguments. Now here is the proof. Conservative success at the ballot box came when fear was replaced with logical solutions to problems that recognized market principles, individual responsibility, national defense, all accomplished with as little government as possible. Reason won out over fear. Unfortunately, the fear and hate mongers are back, with a cherry-picked perception of history and rigid ideology that would make the Taliban happy. To call them immature is to let them off the hook to easily. They are down right frightening.
I’m firmly in the “build a wall and secure the border first” camp and was profoundly disappointed in Bush’s speech last night. And, I’d like to see most of the illegal immigrants already here leave. However, I’m also an historian by training and like to think of myself as a student of practical politics.
Historically, walls have been built to keep the barbarians out (e.g. the Great Wall of China, Hadrian’s Wall between England and Scotland, the Maginot Line) far more often than they have been built to keep people in. In that sense, the border fortifications of the communist countries are anomolous, more analogous to the restrictions on specific people in bondage in slave-owning societies.
Unfortunately, the history of border walls has not been successful in the long run: the Great Wall did not ultimately protect China and once the Roman Legions withdrew, Hadrian’s Wall did not keep the Picts out. So, while I support a wall, I don’t think it will be the panecea that some seem to. The only thing that will ultimately be successful to reduce illegal immigration to an acceptable noice level is political will, which seems to be lacking in our political class, beginning with George Bush.
Worse, historically, political movements against immigrants in this country have never been successful over time. The Know-Nothings and Wide-Awakes of the second quarter of the 19th century did not succeed in keeping Irish and Germans out, and only ensured their allegience to the Democrats who supported the immigrants. And, the domination by the Democrats in our largest cities in the late 19th and 20th centuries is certainly closely related (IMHO) to the strongly anti-immigrant stance of large portions of the Northern Republican base. (The South is a different matter – there were no Republicans to speak of and the Democrats combined their antipathy towards the freedmen with antipathy to immigrants generally (especially Catholics and Jews from Eastern and Southern Europe). I suspect Bush and others in Washington on both sides of the aisle understand the historical precedents. Republicans are wary, and the Democrats are eager to repeat our historical pattern.
Once the borders are secure, I would favor reducing the illegal population by attrition, denying illegal aliens public services (education or other than emergency medical care – which would be followed by immediate deportation), improving enforcement against employers, denying citizenship to children born of illegal aliens, and making it very very clear that illegal entrants to the United States who are caught would be permanently barred from not only a path to citizenship, but any entry into the United States ever, for any reason. It would take time, and undoubtedly some hard cases making for tear-jerking stories in the national press, for the word to reach the street here and abroad, but when the risks of illegal entry begin to outweigh the expected benefits in the minds of potential illegal immigrants, I would expect a dramatic drop in illegal entry.
Beyond that, I think I could support an extended path to citizenship for those who have been here at least 5 years with clean records and no history of being a public charge. To set the time, I’d look to the average wait for those applying to come to the US from abroad to get in (since it varies by country, I’m sure), and add that to the time one would have to wait to apply for citzenship once here legally. I suspect that might be as much as another 10-15 years. So be it.
I would also give people in that situation a reasonable window within which to register, somewhere between 90 days and 6 months. After that time, those who did not register would be subject to immediate and permanent deportation when and if caught.
During the probationary period, I’d insist that the individuals maintain a clean record – even an arrest for a felony or conviction of anything more than a traffic ticket (assuming the individual was legally driving and had proper insurance) would result in immediate deportation and permanent bar to reentry.
And, of course, I’d require English fluency – not rudimentary knowledge of English, but at least high school equivalency – and a thorough knowledge of American history, political institutions and the importance of assimilation. And, I would go back to requiring renunciation of any foreign citizenship.
I think this approach is more akin to the way in which we allowed in legal immigrants (except for the extra time) before the 1920s closing of the immigration door.
I had been a daily reader of polipundit.com, but after today I will never visit that blog again. It’s a group blog run by Polipundit (who blogs anonymously). Lori Byrd had been a poster there until early this morning. She is a marvelous conservative blogger who is a joy to read. She left polipundit.com because Polipundit sent her an email stating in part:
“From now on, every blogger at PoliPundit.com will either agree with me completely on the immigration issue, or not blog at PoliPundit.com.” I would provide additional context, but Polipundit has asked that the contents of our emails not be disclosed publicly and I think that is a fair request. There has been plenty written in the posts over the past week alone to let readers figure out what happened. Polipundit ended a later email with this: “It’s over. The group-blogging experiment was nice while it lasted, but we have different priorities now. It’s time to go our own separate ways.”
Lori Byrd is now posting at her blog, http://byrddroppings.typepad.com/byrd_droppings/
Please add her blog to your blogrolls and support her site by reading her blog regularly.
A healthy conservative movement has no room for people like Polipundit or Michael Savage.
Given the excess of emotion that characterizes this debate over immigration, “the sky is falling” and “storm troopers are preparing to march into the Senate chamber” are the most excessive I’ve seen yet. Most of us can survive this turbulence if we just calm down, take a deep breath, and get a grip.
We must take care to avoid the dagger now aimed at the heart of the Republican party. The president’s speech last night aligns him with the Democrats and “moderate” Republicans on this issue against the party’s base of conservatives. At all costs such a showdown in the House must be avoided. Can anyone imagine the spectacle of the president, the Democrats, and 20 “moderate” Republicans defeating the party’s base in a struggle cast as Armageddon? Only bad things can flow from that.
Is not a compromise possible here? Or are corporate Republicans determined to once and finally drive a stake into the party’s heart?
Is the sequence of implementation on the table for negotiation? Or not? Can we establish border security first, then move on to crafting a temporary worker program and pathway to citizenship?
That Vox Day column was the worst reaction I’ve yet seen to the President’s remarks. For once the word “shocking” really means something to me. And I thought Polipundit was bad.
This is a VERY unwelcome development, and some people on the Right need to back away from the abyss that Vox Day is staring into. I just hope that other bloggers will also notice this column and give Day the public reaming he deserves.
People need to realize that this is a republic, not a dictatorship. Bush is not King, the most he can do is try for a compromise that is loved by none but tolerated by most. It seems people would rather demand something they can get and in the process alienate a good deal of the country. The Democrats must be loving this.
I can’t access Polipundit. Maybe his site crashed from the complaints aimed at him.
HAVE YOU BECOME PART OF THE PROBLEM?…
It’s disheartening to see so many from the Right taking their potshots at the president. It seems too many of the bloggers are angry at President Bush. I’m not talking about good ol’ American disagreement. Disagree in public all you want. I’m talki…
Sheesh AJ when your arguments suck you stoop to such low levels to win. Should I pick out some radicals who support President Bush and argue that their existence smears the entire open borders crowd? Should the supporters of La Raza be used as support for President Bush’s extremely lax enforcement of this countries laws?
Not a single serious person is calling for massive deportations. Take a look at the guys picture, trust me anyone with a Mohawk is not being taken seriously, except by people desperately trying to make the President sound reasonable.
All the posturing on the side of the President has ignored one simple fact. That we do not enforce our laws against employers has created an entire class of people who live as slaves to companies such as Tyson foods. They are doing the jobs Americans won’t because its is against the law to subject Americans to those sorts of working conditions.
His speech was a mess simply because it is a lie that a guest worker program needs to be part of the solution to sealing the border. More importantly he needs to actually start enforcing the laws against employers which aside from that Dog and Pony show of a couple of weeks ago he as simply refused to do. To a degree that makes Clinton appear to be a law and order Republican.
The president’s speech on immigration last night was not shampoo. It was the real stuff.
By aligning himself with Democrats and corporate Republicans on this issue, the president has aimed a dagger at the Republican party’s heart. Presuming that the Senate will hastily pass a 614-page “compromise” that would bring a tidal wave of 193 million aliens to this country in 20 years, this sets up Armageddon on the House floor. Imagine the spectacle of the president, Democrats and 20 “moderates” defeating the Republican base.
All Pelosi hearts must sing with anticipation.
This result is not foreordained. Conservatives must hang together on this issue or they will, assuredly, hang separately.
Toughness and tenacity in the conference committee and on the House floor can bring us a reasonable compromise without driving a stake into the party’s heart. The outline of that compromise is already on the table. First, secure the border and demonstrate to the American people that our laws will be enforced. Then craft a substantial and credible guest worker program and a pathway to citizenship that respects the American dream and does credit to our history of immigration.
Playing the victim, Pierre?
Either this stuff is unacceptable, or it is acceptable. There is no middle ground on this, Pierre. Where are you going to stand on this, with the creeps like Mr. Day, or with President Bush?
Well said. This should get the widest possible circulation on the right.
We are self-destructing over this issue and will rue the day that we let emotion get the better of our views on public policy.
Hi everybody!
First time poster here but long time reader. Here is something I think would be great to discuss:
I found this on Big Lizards and want to give the writer credit because it mirrors my take on this long BEFORE the speech (which was great, by the way):
……..
Finally, let’s loose the term “guest workerâ€, and let’s call them what they are – expatriate employees. Let the companies who hire them sponsor them. Sponsorship may be transferred, but if an employee looses sponsorship, they must return home till they find another. Families are tied to employees’ sponsorship unless they have a separate sponsor. Conviction of a felony or serious misdemeanor (i.e. drunken driving) is automatic permanent deportation unless the conviction is overturned, and the expatriate must return home until that happens. No expatriate employee may apply for citizenship. They may of course return home and apply for citizenship, but not while they are a sponsored employee.
The President’s speech fell flat because it was not a proposal, it was an outline. The time for outlines is past.
The above hissed in response by: Truzenzuzex
…..
Now, THAT is a seriously thought out proposal and should get the attention it truly deserves. I like it alot!! If you want to check out the whole comment it is over at Big Lizards. I am not sure where I posted mine, but I did post a comment somewhere on “sponsorshipâ€, I just didn’t take it to it’s logical conclusion and this is a great one…don’t you think? Plus, it is a compromise proposal that just might start a realistic discussion of where we go from here.
Carol
First time poster here but long time reader. I found this on Big Lizards and want to give the writer credit because it mirrors my take on this long BEFORE the speech (which was great, by the way):
……..
Finally, let’s loose the term “guest workerâ€, and let’s call them what they are – expatriate employees. Let the companies who hire them sponsor them. Sponsorship may be transferred, but if an employee looses sponsorship, they must return home till they find another. Families are tied to employees’ sponsorship unless they have a separate sponsor. Conviction of a felony or serious misdemeanor (i.e. drunken driving) is automatic permanent deportation unless the conviction is overturned, and the expatriate must return home until that happens. No expatriate employee may apply for citizenship. They may of course return home and apply for citizenship, but not while they are a sponsored employee.
The President’s speech fell flat because it was not a proposal, it was an outline. The time for outlines is past.
The above hissed in response by: Truzenzuzex
…..
Now, THAT is a seriously thought out proposal and should get the attention it truly deserves. I like it alot!! If you want to check out the whole comment it is over at Big Lizards. I am not sure where I posted mine, but I did post a comment somewhere on “sponsorshipâ€, I just didn’t take it to it’s logical conclusion and this is a great one…don’t you think? Plus, it is a compromise proposal that just might start a realistic discussion of where we go from here.
Carol
There has become no difference between some conservatives like Michelle Malkin, Polipundit, La Shawn Barber, Savage and Peggy Noonan and the lunatic left of democrat underground or kos kids, except party registrations and ideology.
They are both irrational and hurt their cause more than they help. Thanks to the conservative mouthpieces listed above there is becoming a real possibility some conservatives may sit out the Nov. elections (to teach the GOP a lesson) and thus lead to a Reid senate and a Pelosi house.
I wonder how deranged and unhinged these conservatives will become then. Of course though they will blame it on Bush, yet when they were more responsibile for the donks takeover than POTUS.
CNN Poll [John Podhoretz] David Frum, the smartest man I know, got it wrong. CNN has a poll just up, and the results are staggeringly in the president’s favor. 79 percent of those who watched had a very favorable or favorable view of the speech, and those who support the president’s policies rose in number from 42 to 67 percent. Posted at 1:02 PM http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=YmY4Y2MxOGM1OWY2Njk1ZWM2NGNlN2ViNjhmMzU2OTQ