Mar 27 2006
Amnesty Over Mass Deportation Any Day!
** Update: More good thoughts on supporting workers, not handing out citizenship, at American Thinker.
** Update: Seems I will have my choice after all:
The Senate Judiciary Committee last night approved a plan that would put millions of illegal aliens on a path to U.S. citizenship, would let them stay here while applying and would not punish their unlawful entry as a felony, contrary to a House-passed bill.
I hate to burst people’s bubbles, but our constitution doesn’t allow for laws to be enacted pro-actively. The 11-12 million illegal immigrants now in country could never be held as felons under a new law passed this year. So reality came through and Congress decided to not try and make believe they had done something while doing nothing!
The plan approved by the committee — taken from a bill written by Sens. John McCain, Arizona Republican, and Edward M. Kennedy, Massachusetts Democrat — would fine current illegal aliens $2,000 each. The bill also would require aliens to undergo criminal background checks and mandate that they maintain employment over the six years they wait to get in line for full citizenship, a process which takes several more years.
That is the proper penalty for improper paperwork. And yes, we still need to secure our borders and punish employers who still side step registering their workers. That goes without saying.
Addendum: Governor Ahnold says it well today. Let’s come together on this path so we make progress instead of waste time.
Marine Lance Cpl. O.J. Santa Maria is a fine example of this. He is an immigrant who was living in Daly City, Calif., when he enlisted in the Marines. During the Iraq war, he was severely wounded. Because of his military service, he was granted citizenship. When the oath of citizenship was read to him, he stood up from his wheelchair in pain and in tears. “It’s for the respect,” he said later when asked why he stood. “I’m taking an oath to the Constitution of the United States of America.”
** Update: I wish this was my choice, rather than the Amnesty or Deportation.
With Republicans deeply divided, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted on Monday to legalize the nation’s 11 million illegal immigrants and ultimately to grant them citizenship, provided that they hold jobs, pass criminal background checks, learn English and pay fines and back taxes.
With Republicans deeply divided, the Senate Judiciary Committee voted on Monday to legalize the nation’s 11 million illegal immigrants and ultimately to grant them citizenship, provided that they hold jobs, pass criminal background checks, learn English and pay fines and back taxes.
If we could rally behind this immigrant workers would be documented, paying taxes and hopefully joining health care insurance pools. Without this we will have nothing – end update.
I am getting the impression some people don’t understand the stakes in the illegal immigration issue. If there is any policy which will ensure the GOP loses Congress next year it is the idea of mass deportations for what is, in the end, a crime of improper work papers.
I posted earlier on how the ‘illegal alien’ is an aberration from a fantasy number cooked up in DC by some faceless bureaucrats. The difference between a legal and illegal alien is whether the worker made it under the mythical number of ‘allowable’ guest workers. This idiotic concept that DC knows what the economy can tolerate in terms of guest workers, and the idea that number is fixed all year, is why good people fail to get registered with the proper work papers. Anyone who thinks this number dictates the goodness of someone is just plain dumb. That number is not from God, it is a wild a$$ guess. So when there are more people who can be absorbed in the economy than this mythical number predicted, it does not make the extra workers ‘illegal’, it makes that mythical number irrelevant.
The market is too dynamic and seasonal for someone in DC, pretending to be ominopent enough to pull a number from someplace ‘soecial, to define the perfect magic work force number for the coming year.
A good guest worker program would allow the market to ebb and flow while US unemployment stayed below a certian number (easily 5%). As US unemployment rose restrictions would come into play in the top job areas (anyone thinking an engineer making $110K/year is going into the produce or construction business is just not being realistic – not to mention most engineers I know should be nowhere near carpentry tools).
In that post I added a poll showing most of us our not interested in Amnesty or giving people here illegally a short cut path to citizenship. But the far right is making this an ultimatum with no choices, and it will rue the day it did. Because, simply put, I will take amnesty over massed deportations any day of the week.
A crime of improper paperwork is something like not having a proper business license, or not filing your taxes, or not registering your new car. These ‘crimes’ carry fines as punishment, not being ripped from your job and school and dumped on the streets. I am all for deporting immigrants (legal and illlegal) who commit certain crimes, including repeat DUI’s or reckless driving. But not having the proper paperwork? If 20% of illegal immigrants are in fact criminals, then that means out of the 11 million illegal immigrants I can see deporting 2.2 million – leaving 8.8 million to become documented (with a fine for not doing their papers right) and guest workers.
But rounding them all up and goose stepping them to the border?
I totally dislike amnesty. I think it is unfair to all those who worked within the system to get work permits and citizenship. But if I am forced to chose between that and deporting millions of people because the right cannot distinguish a paperwork crime from a felony, then I guess I will have to vote in Democrats and let amnesty happen.
Amnesty is a travesty. But mass deportation is a crime, a crime much worse than illegal immigration. Iy is a crime against humanity since it’s stated purpose is to throw 11 million people (and who knows how many families) into the street. It smells too much of all the ethnic cleansings of the last 100 years. It as the lame benefit of not being fatal to the targets as these other acts, but that doesn’t make it sufficiently pallatable to me.
If we have to accept a travesty to avoid a massive crime against well meaning good people, so be it. If that is all I am allowed to chose between we will have a Democrat controlled Congress, not matter how much I hate the idea. Because in this case, it truly is the lesser of two evils.
Update: Dr Sanity provides the perfect post on what America is:
“Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”This poem lyrically communicates one of the oldest and most deeply-felt American values. Most Americans, although not immigrants themselves, have ancestors that came to this shore seeking freedom from oppression, and a new chance at life. America has always opened her arms and welcomed them. And we are a strong and vibrant country because of it.
The post describes why America’s diversity is her strength, and were the multiculturist crowd as tried to make the parts greater than the sum of the whole (cultures in the melting pot greater than the pot itself). Balance has been lost to the extremists on both sides of this issue. It is a sad a tragic time for America.
You have got to be kidding us.
Improper work papers, did you see the mexican flags flying in LA.
It’s a shame you cannot recognize a destabilization of a country.
Read some classic works on war and terror and insurgency and tell me if these tactics do not look similar
Be Well
AJ, this is the last I will post on this issue but I would like for you to take a look at this:
http://www.utexas.edu/lbj/uscir/032995.html
“We believe that legal immigration is in the national interest, but see illegal immigration as a threat both to our long tradition of immigration and to our commitment to the rule of law”
Barbara Jordan was not a bigotted white supremist. And she understood what I have been trying to tell you in 1995.
Bloody Spartan,
The Mexican flag flying has nothing to do with the matter. It is like a red flag in front of a mindless bull. It is meant to antagonize and cause he rightwing to go nuts and lose their composure. Yes, there are lunatics in the camp wanting open borders. Did you miss all the points I made about no open borders and strict adherence to our laws? The destabilization of our country comes from people running amok on emotions instead of using their heads.
Stop acting like a bull who cannot stop himself when tuanted by the red cape in a bullpen. You are letting people pull your strings.
Don’t get upset because I am not so easily taunted. Immigrant workers are being driven into the ranks of these anti American types idiots like Tancredo and Michael Savage have told them they are not welcome.
Yeah, there some inspirational idiocy at work. Go follow the savage robots. Just realize acting like a savage means you will get treated with all the respect due!
Retire05,
All right, then you come out and defend the number pulled out of some DC bureaucrats orifice that defines who is and is not a legal immigrant worker each year. Show me that how that arbitrary number is able to discern who is good and who is not?
Gimme a break. Illegal workers are the same as legal workers, they jsut didn’t get the right place in line. If that is what you use to define legal and illegal I have zero respect for you.
Illegal to me is someone who comes here and doesn’t abide by our laws in the sense they commit real crimes. Steal? Out you go (legal or illegal alien!). Rape or murder – do your time and then one way ticket out.
But work papers???
Sorry – no sale.
Yo have to remember, AJ, that President Bush is going to have the last word on this one. Every time the anti-immigration forces have tried to bully him on this issue, they have failed. If they push him on this issue, he’ll push back. There are enough calm heads and enough team players to get on board with a reasonable compromise that doesn’t punish innocent families or seriously damage the US economy.
The GOP might be losing its mind, along with its nerve, but George Bush never will. As bad as things seem to get, that fact always gives me hope.
Have a good one.
OK, AJ, I will admit I do not know how the quotas are determined. So?
Illegal workers are the same as legal workers? So does that means that the man who walks into a 7/11 and robs it is the same as the man who walks in and pays for what he takes? The illegal didn’t fail to get into the right line; he failed to get into line altogether. He jumped in front of those who were waiting in line.
So now you are cherry picking laws. You want to qualify our laws. One law has more merit than another. Now just who will decide what merit a law has? You? Me? Democrat? Republican? Who?
So because I do not feel that those who didn’t respect our laws in the first place, jumped in front of the line, continues to break our laws by being here and should not be rewarded you have no respect for me?
So if I go rob a 7/11 to feed my family, will you back me and decide that it is an inconvenient law and I should not be prosecuted? After all, I was just trying to make a living for my family.
I still have respect for your reporting abilities, but it seems that you still don’t get it. THEY ARE ILLEGAL. As in not legal. Law breakers. Violators of the law.
Please show me where our immigration laws are less important than any other law and I might agree with you. Show me the clause in the Constitution that says one law is more important than another.
Sometimes I wonder if this problem began with subsidized water. As long as the southwest was one big desert, the immigration was kind of slow.
I think we need to get control of the borders and do a far better job of enforcing of the laws but these people have been coming over that border for decades. I remember when Reagan was president there was some talk of securing the border and dealing with immigration, and here we are, twenty years later and the right is getting more hysterical all the time.
I think the flag waving was dumb, but then again I wonder how many of those people were even Mexican, it seems to me there is a lot of street theatre to political demonstrations these days. But there were not 11 million illegal aliens out there in streets, andblaming all of them and treating them like mass murderers or something is just stupid.
I think we need some kind of temporary or guest worker program, people need to either get legal or get out….but mass deportations, sheesh folks think of the black people on bridges begging for water during Katrina and multiply that by about 1,000.
BTW I got out of farming because I could not afford to hire help who were willing to milk cows and put up hay. There were times when I might well have hired a Mexican myself.
If they are running out of water in the desert, tell the folks in Scarsdale to get rid of the swimming pools and golf courses. I mean come on people, the population has grown so much down there it is no small wonder there is a problem with water, it is not exactly a green place. I know, I grew up in the southwest. Blaming that on illegals is just silly.
So was anyone who drove over 55 miles an hour when that was the federally-mandated speed limit. Or anyone who had a drink when the Volstead Act was in force. Or anyone between 18-21 who has had a drink when the federal government mandated that change…
Retire:
If I fail to get my drivers license renewed I am driving illegally. That does not mean I get hauled off to jail, or lose my job, or lose my home, or am transported out of the country. Some of these people have been here for years working and paying taxes. They are not in hiding. They are not disguised. They are out there in the Home Depot parking lot. I know a couple of them that just got a job helping an old lady put a roof on her house because she could not afford the 7 grand it took to get a regular contractor. Be sure to lock her up too.
Terrye, if you sneak into Mexico and drive without a license and get caught, you will go to jail. It is just that simple. And you get a licence because you are a legal resident of your state. And when your license expires are you going to demand that we give you free housing and food stamps? No, you are going to pay your ticket. Illegals aren’t even getting tickets.
And why are they in the Home Depot parking lot? Are they working illegally for Home Depot? Then Home Depot should be prosecuted for hiring illegals and punished to the full extend of the law.
As for the old lady you know who used illegals to put her roof on, remind her of this; her Social Security is in being reduced because of the Social Security agreement that we have just currently made with Mexico. Work here in the United States (legally or illegally) for 5 years only and when you are 62 you can have your SS check sent to Mexico.
She is part of the problem. If she hired illegals, she knowing broke the law. But then, I guess you, also, want to cherry pick laws and qualify them. Let’s see, how do you suggest we classify our laws when broken? Perhaps we could have Class Not Important; Class Semi-Important and Class Really Important? Show me where that is listed in the Constitution.
Retire:
She is an old lady who needed a new roof, and no law abiding citizens such as yourself volunteered. We are talking about 11 million people, I keep hearing people say they are everywhere, one guy compared them to rats, so of course they are in parking lots and apartment complexes and grocery stores and walmarts…etc.
I am part Indian, I had ancestors in the Trail of Tears so as far as at least part of me is concerned you are all a bunch of illegals. But then there is the Irish and German part of me that says, hey we were all immigrants too.
Tancredo says he will run on this in 2008 and if that splits the party and hands the WH to the Democrats “So be it”. What do you think Hillary would do about the Mexicans? It seems Tancredo is more interested in demagogueing the issue for his own purposes than he is in long term solutions that will actually work.
So before you get your blood pressure up and have a stroke keep in mind that Bush is talking about immigration control, Frist is talking about immigration control, there is a good chance at a compromise solution if people will stop the hsyterical crap and work together.
Man it is just one thing after another. People take a break for a couple of days and then they start screaming about something else. You act as if everyone is ignoring this and only you and a few brave souls are dealing with this. Nonsense, now get a grip.
Terrye, I am also of Cherokee decent. My family had to leave Tennesse because of the “Indian policies”. My Irish side endured hardships that you cannot imagine. So What? That was then. This is now. My Cherokee side was here to begin with, my Irish side came legally. So your point, I take it, is that we all came from immigrants? Again, so what? My ancestors didn’t break the law to come here.
And listen, sweetie pie, don’t tell me to get a grip. I have been dealing with the illegals for probably longer than you have been alive.
As to the old woman not having any one to help her? I have been in Mississippi for three months now volunteering to help Katrina victims spending my own dime. Are you or your spouse not able to help a neighbor? Or is it just easier to let her spend her money on an illegal? If you knew someone (and old person especially) needed help, where were you? Where is your humanity?
Everyone needs to take a deep breath and some time off from this subject – and then come back to see if they have any new options to offer.
Because this issue could cement the conservative hold on government or destroy it. Depends on the willingness to of people to come together.
With due respect, AJ, I have enjoyed many deep breaths on this issue.
There are 3 steps for combat first aid on a sucking chest wound:
1. Stop the bleeding.
2. Start the breathing.
3. Treat for shock.
Fail to administer in the proper order and the wounded Marine has little fighting chance.
The simple fact of the matter is that we must first stop the bleeding.
This means securing the borders and minimizing the massive influx of undocumented workers, illegal aliens, people seeking to work to support their families, and people seeking a social safety net upon which to give birth to their children.
A guest worker program is vital. But it is decidedly not the first priority.
Your view on a guest worker program has merit.
But not as the first address.
With regards to the Mexican flags flying in LA and elsewhere, I would suggest that, if I were in Germany and desperately wanted to gain citizenship or stay there, I would be flying the German flag like there were no tomorrow. Not the Stars & Stripes. But I do not carry a sense of entitlement seemingly on display here.
But that is a social issue not wholly germain to this conversation, but also not unrelated.
Economics, however is. Check the statistics on unpaid emergency room hospital treatment for undocumented and equally uninsured migrant/workers/aliens. Check the cost per head for public schools and the number of children of undocumented migrants/workers/aliens. Schools are funded by local taxes, primarily. Those local taxes are collected in the form of property taxes, not income tax. Undocumented migrants/workers/aliens are rarely homeowners. Are you aware that in several states, there are more undocumented migrants/workers/aliens in their jails and prisons than US citizens? How is that paid for?
I am wholly disinterested in hearing the ‘tax-paying workers’ argument without an accompanying accounting of the tax consumption rate.
We will never have the stomach to deport entire families, many with children born here (and therefore citizen children of illegal parents). This is to our credit as a decent society.
But we must stop this dangerous practice of ignoring the unabated and uncontested flow. Ask a border patrol agent. They will tell you that, as hard as they work, there’s just no way for them to succeed at current levels.
Only when we address this and gain control of the flow can we begin to address any guest worker program, designed after your model or any other.
You’re trying to build the deck of the ship before the hull’s been laid.
Just read a few more of the comments…felt like chiming in once more…
For what it’s worth:
Yes, I am Cherokee. Now, I don’t know what Trails my ancestors may or may not have walked. I do know that two of them escaped the grips of Nazi Germany via Hungary and Poland respectively. I know that one of them was a Pearl Harbor survivor. I know that another was a NASCAR champion from the early days.
I also know that they are all dead.
What I have is this country – for all of its faults and shortcomings – the greatest, most prosperous, most compassionate nation on this planet. Its security is my primary concern. For my children and, hopefully, grandchildren (though not too soon, please).
There are physical threats, such as that posed by those who would fly airliners into office buildings full of warmongering businessmen and businesswomen.
There are political threats, like those who would dismantle this system of government and replace it with a socialist model built on government dependancy.
And, there are economic threats, such as that posed by the hemhorraging of public funds sustaining a largely highly dependent influx of undocumented illegal inhabitants.
The wide-open border is an economic threat of significant magnitude and it must be addressed.
Blame no one.
Expect nothing.
Do something.
Get off the ancestry kick. They’re dead. You are not.
http://martinmusings.blogspot.com/2006/03/senate-j…
I wonder how the thousands of people who legally applied to enter the country, and those who are still waiting, are feeling right now about their law-breaking brethren and the appeasement tactics by the Senate Judiciary Committee?…
Retire:
I grew up in the southwest during the civil right era, so I doubt that yu have been around a lot longer than I have. I rememberwhen the southwest really was a desert and there were no big towns and cities to speak of out there. My grandparents were Okies during the Depression who lost everything they owned in the Dust Bowl and had to go pick fruit in California. So yes, I have been around for awhile.
So fine don’t get a grip, let some moron like Tancredo or Malkin work you up into a a fenzy, maybe even run an altenative candidate on the issue, like Tancredo himself and hand the White House to Hillary Clinton. The last time a Clinton won it because the right wing went silly, no need to disappoint the little lady. Might as well because if people do not show some restraint and good sense here they will lose the Congress in 06 as well.
Happens everytime, the Republicans win and the right wing of the party start thinking they run everything and the rest of the country has no say in matters and then bam! they get beat.
I voted for Bush and I respect him, I can’t say the same thing for some other people out there.
Steve:
1 in 20 American workers are illegals and we have a 4.8% unemployment rate. Just jerk all those people out of here and it will hurt the economy far more than help it.
Speaking of Marines, there are men who have died in Iraq who were born citizens of Mexico, start mass deportations and you can be sure there will be people being forced from the homes who will be telling the TV people they have relatives fighting in Iraq.
We definitely need to fix this problem, but mass deportations is not the answer.
Come on AJ, its not improper paperwork. It is no paperwork. It may avoid the red tape, but it is not just a paperwork problem. There is a concept called the rule of law. Unfortunately, for many it does not seem to apply to our immigration laws.
I saw a poll recently where 40 percent of Mexicans would like to immigrate to the US. If we could push that number up another 11 points, perhaps we could just annex the rest of Mexico and cure the problem.
You folks have to stop thinking so nice.
History tells us all civilizations collapse. I seem to think we are well own are way .
IF it makes me cruel to mass deport Illegal Aliens so be it.
I would seal the border and shoot to kill. One nuke or biological brought on board can kill millions.
Israel’s Wall works great no one sane can deny it.
I have the stomach to do whatever logic tells me is correct or at least what is in America’s best interests.
I doubt I would like it but popularity is a fleeting emotion. Protecting what I love is what counts.
Immigration should be on an as needed basis. There was a reason Ellis Island was used.
Ancient diseases are now spreading along with parasites and other types of matter that our systems are not balanced to.
We are no longer a melting pot but a witches caludron. Diversity is the phrase. I think is’t a canard.
So I ask what is it that binds us together. It sure is not the American Flag any more burn it who cares it’s just a symbol.
Sorry diversity don’t cut it no matter what the post says.
What is the common thread that kept civilization growing and progress coming. What made us good and kept us that way?
I for one am tired of Bush repeating the mantra doing the jobs no one else wants.
If the market was left to decide the wages would rise to meet the demand.
I believe the Rand Institute says the same. Maybe others also.
But hey common sense would tell us that.
We artificially corrupt that process by allowing mass illegal immigration to occur.
Signing a trade agreement with Senate ratification does not seem like the free market at work.
I don’t know how it is elsewhere but the illegals in Farmingville NY will not work for less than 100-125 day .
Being an umemployed geek tech worker I question how in today’s economy. I am amazed how many indian folks do what I do for a lot less, also but I am not quite sure if we still subsidize that field so there can be more visa’s.
I have worked with many of them, great fellows and just about all of them have told me. When they are done they are going back home with there pensions and SSI and live like Kings. They even marry Indian women from there and bring them here. But for many I am not sure which is there home.
I think dual citizenship is a curse, A dog cannot have two masters. Maybe simplistic but people are sure not getting friendlier in the US are they? Make up you mind and stand and fight for one or the other.
Just looking at the media and the way they and even you describe fellow americans seems to solidify that line of thought,
It seems that you and others of your line of logic have more animosity for Tancredo and our type than you do for the law breakers. Far as I know Mr. Tancredo has not broken any laws. Me on the other hand maybe a few.
But then again he is a politician.
I have no idea if they (illegals) pay taxes some do and some don’t. I do know that crime rate has gone up and gangs are growing daily most of them from Mexico and El Salvador. Locally speaking. MI 13 I think.
I now the Social Services offices and the like are full. And very few speak english.
I have lived on LI all my life and see the deterioration. Are the FBI statistics on crime in our prisons telling us something or is it just them damn statistics.
People throw out the red herrring that mexicans have died in Iraq. So what. Americans have died there too. I understand that is one way to get citizen ship. I would have gone to but I am too old.
I doubt they get as well treated as did the Irish did in the 18th Century.
Where is the rule book that says Mexico gets precedence above all others.
I see “Blackmail” by the Mexican Govt. Am I the only one?
What makes people think Mexico does not want Texas, California etc. back. Why should they be any different than the palestinians.
Wars have waged for centuries. Who says mexico is any different. Some humiliations never go away.
I probably have very few answers other than balance is the key to life.
Logic should be the governing factor and no extreme is any good unless pure logic brings us there.
My logic tells me seal the borders and use immigration in a structured format.
Without structure we all will collapse.
I have a saying.
When the Barbarians conquered Rome, WHO WON?
NO ONE because that had no idea what it was they had just beaten let alone to do with it.
ALA MONTY PYTHON!
Lunacy OFF
Be Well AJ we just really disagree. It’s late and I am off to bed and fired.