Mar 27 2006

Immigration: Legal And Illegal

Published by at 10:09 am under All General Discussions,Illegal Immigration

*** Update: To point out where the line in the sand is, look at this poll:

_ Some 59 percent say they oppose allowing illegal immigrants to apply for legal, temporary-worker status, an NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll found.

_ More than six in 10, 62 percent, say they oppose making it easier for illegal immigrants to become citizens, according to a Quinnipiac University poll. Nine in 10 in that poll say they consider immigration to be a serious problem _ with 57 percent of those polled saying very serious.

_ Three-fourths say the United States is not doing enough along its borders to keep illegal immigrants out, a Time Magazine poll found.

I am not with the 59% who are against guest workers, I am with the 62% and the 75% who want to keep citizenship something to be earned ‘in line’ with everyone else waiting, and who think we need to control our boarders. The 59% want to punish people for not having all the paperwork to deserve working for a living and raising a family. Well, when we start creating tests for who is ‘good enough’ in this country, watch out. The ‘haves’ will find all sorts of reasons not to give the ‘have nots’ a fair share. And the ‘haves’ are never more than 10% of any population.

Let me be asbolutely clear on this line in the sand. I would rather vote in Democrats and let them give amnesty – something I am completely opposed to – rather than allow 11 million people, mostly families, be uprooted from their homes and schools and dumped in the street. Because while amnesty is a travesty, deporting 11 million people is a crime against humanity.

End Update

The strident voices on both sides of this issue are claiming the pending doom of civilization as we know it. Of course, we have somehow avoided this doom during the 30+ years this issue has blossomed. We let illegal immigration grow to a point were we cannot reverse it without draconian measures only a few have the stomach for – we are not rounding up 11 million people here illegally and dumping them over the border. We all need to recognize that the fault lies with us all.

On the flip side, the immigrants who are here have become accustomed to living under-the-table illegally, and have become wedded to living off government largess in a manner opposite to our work ethic. Where a normal worker is proud to pay their taxes and work at a job to get medical benefits and save for retirement, the illegal immigrant workers must dodge income taxes to keep their jobs, get medical services from the emergency room and government clinics, and they are going to rarely have the ability to retire in comfort.

So by allowing this to fester we have established a working class that is socialistic in nature and not part of our democratic free market society of America. And now these people wrongly protest for a socialistic structure this country is adamantly opposed to. The immigrant community allowed themselves to diverge socially by keeping this underground effort going too long. And now they are paying the price by being rightfully seen as opposite to American values and goals. The biggest complaint about immigration is the most accurate, immigrants represent an out of proportion drain on social services. Immigrants need accept this as a real problem and stop pretending everytime someone brings it up they are racist and xenophibic. Their are enough real racists and xenophobes messing with this issue as it is.

Addendum: This is the kind of BS we do not need in this debate:

Rep Tancredo: They [illegal immigrants] are “a scourge that threatens the very future of our nation,” he says. He laments “the cult of multiculturalism,” and worries about America’s becoming a “Tower of Babel.”

Actually, what is a scourge on America is this kind of hate filled talk. Immigration is a mixed bag because it brings a lot of good and good people along with challenges and some really bad people. Tancredo makes America look like a “Tower of Babbble”. End update

So while we need to fix this problem ASAP, what we don’t need is overheated rhetoric. The illegal immigrant worker is the worker who was too far back in the line to be deemed a legal immigrant worker. The difference between the two is not their desire to work hard, or to raise a good family or to be law abiding members of this society. The difference is one has papers and the other doesn’t.

If both are employed and doing right by family and society, then we should look at ourselves and ask why didn’t we just add a few more legal slots to cover these people? Who picked the number of legal immigrants allowed to work here temporarily anyway? Why is it the number consistently under estimates our society’s capacity to employ these people? It is an arbitrary number that impacts people unfairly. There is no science or moral value in the number, but people use it to identify the good from the bad all the time, as if that number was God incarnate.

The most massive influx of immigrants happened in the same period our economy has had its strongest growth (80’s and 90’s). So only the obtuse can rationalize ‘harm’ to our economy. If Americans where suffering 10-20% unemployment I might agree we have too many guest workers. But that is not the case.

So, if Americans can stop bashing illegal immigrants as if their crime was equal to felony theft, we could address this problem. We would treat it has it is, a lack of proper paperwork which includes a fine and reporting that shows compliance. We would put the person on guest worker status as long as they respect our laws and society.

And for the immigrants that means major adjustments too. Immigrants will need to stop avoiding laws, and appreciate the fact they are guests here. Welcomed guests, but guests. Which means the immigrant communities should be setting up support offices to make sure people are registered workers, paying taxes. They should look to setting up health insurance pools to stop the bleeding on our health system which they misuse. And they should be setting up services to help people re-patriate back to their native lands when there time is up. If we saw this happening, it would neutralize a lot of the rhetoric on the other side.

Also, we do not need to create a US citizen everytime someone is born here. The need to populate this country is over and that benefit needs to be eliminated from the Constitution. Anyone with a US citizen as a parent is obviously a US Citizen. But we cannot have a loop hole where a child born here is supported by an extended family of non citizens. We don’t treat children of foreign workers and Americans any different here, so there is no reason to continue this practice.

Finally, the immigrants must deal with one last reality: a serious crime means eviction. If people come here and abuse the opportunity, we will show them the door. Gangs would be a thing of the past if crime was a one way ticket to South America. Families would probably not follow the wayward child and lsoe what they have, so the criminal element would be on their own and learning the lesson that they should have taken advantage of the opportunity – not squandered it.

Trying to make a living and raise a family and be a good community member is not a crime. And missing paperwork is common. How many people have not registered their car? Filed their taxes on time? You want a real dangerous act: have you ever not inspected a car to see if it was able to be operated safely? To me that last ‘negligence’ is much worse than not having work papers. To me the person speeding down my street where my kids play is the person I would shove at the front of the line to be evicted. The drunk driver is a real threat, not some family from El Salvador where the father works in the construction business.

If people want this issue to be resolved they need to come back down to earth and put it all in perspective and be reasonable. Otherwise we will see people just yelling past each other as they are today. Neither side giving an inch and the problem continuing to exist. We need to just get over the fact we do not have a clean slate and we will have a perfect solution.

Take for example the building of the wall. Immigrants are against this event though they KNOW there is a boundary there. It is fenced off and patrolled. The fact it was still passible does not make it any less real. That wall should be built, our borders must be controlled for a guest worker program to be effective. The immigrants need to understand that was the result of their decades long flaunting of the border. They reaped what the sowed. It is not a sign of racism and xenophobia.

Those who want to kick out 11 million people are as bad as those who decided to roung up all the Japanese Americans in WW II. People wish there are simple answers to complex problems – that way they can see a resolution. In my mind that person is simply avoiding the problem all together by pretending it is simple. Immigrant workers and illegal immigration are complex problems. To think otherwise is naive. The problem involves millions of good families and good people. Any solution that decides we will cast all these people as bad because that is the extent of our imagination to solve this problem is wrong. It is wrong morally, and it is wrong because we are obviously not listening to the right people.

Inner cities used to be a much worse problem than they are today. They seemed insurmountable, and the remaining trouble spots are still resisting our efforts. But the simple solution was to abandon them, to shut them off from the rest of America. Even simpler would be to bulldoze them down. Does anyone think these simple solutions would solve the problem of poverty, poor education, the fractured family unit? Both sides of the immigration issue need better ideas and better leaders. The ones beating this issue now are just grasping at simple solutions and getting us no where.

Update: This editorial says it quite well – be serious and it will get done right. [h/t RCP]

12 responses so far

12 Responses to “Immigration: Legal And Illegal”

  1. HaroldHutchison says:

    Amazing how they are going so full-tilt.

  2. AJStrata says:

    I am not surprised. Disappointed? Yes. But this attitude is out there in large numbers. Not majority numbers, just large numbers. They, like the liberals, make more noise than their numbers reflect. But the silent majority, which always exists, will vote their conscience – quietly. That is why most people never realize they have gone over the cliff of acceptable behavior until it is too late. They ignore or intimidate back the warning signs. But they cannot push back the masses.

  3. retire05 says:

    AJ, first and formost, most are operating on the assumption that the illegals already here want to eventually become American citizens. That is really not the case. And here is my argument against them.
    Most of the money earned by illegals go back to their native land. It is not spent here in the United States. Why? Because they know that they can live better on that money in Mexico than they can in the United States. Case in point; the amount of Americans who have retired in Mexico because of the low cost of living. Another thing; when you want to become a citizen of a country you apply yourself to assimilate. This too, is not happening. Instead we now have dual language signs in the stores, we have school boards that want education provided in Spanish for Spanish speaking only students, we even have our voter registration cards in both English and Spanish. Why? Because Mexican immigrants are insisting that we change to suit their culture, they are not willing to change to assimilate into our culture.
    My opinion is not just a guessing game. It comes from living in a border state that spends $5 billion a year on services for illegal immigrants. It comes from talking to the illegals who admit that they are here to earn as much as possible so they can go back to Mexico and live better than they ever dreamed. It comes from watching the hugh throngs at the 7/11 on a Friday night send their money back to Mexico. It comes from being in a store, many times, and having a illegal Mexican getting angry at the sales clerk because she does not speak Spanish.

    The arguments are that we need these workers. That if they are forced to leave it will be disaster for our economy and our work force. That is not true. The workforce will adjust just as it did when hiring children because against the law. Our economy did not crater then and it will not crater if we lose 11 million illegals. I hear the argument that the illegals take jobs that no other American will do. That also, is false. Two words: COAL MINER I have been in a position that I took a level entry job to help support my family. My pride left when I realized that if I didn’t, my family would not be fed.
    And if you ask the average America if they were willing to pay more for services and goods and less in the taxes that it takes to support millions of illegals in our nation, what do you think the answer would be?
    An illegal carpenter in Houston makes an average of $12.00 an hour. Do you really think there are no Americans that would work for that salary? Do you really think there are not high school kids who would be willing to cut our grass, or uneducated Americans who would be willing to work entry level positions? When was the last time you walked into a McDonald’s and everyone behind the counter was Spanish speaking only? Those were jobs that used to be held by Americans.
    To compare those who want the illegals to go home to those who wanted the American-Japanese in interment camps is a low blow. The Japanese-Americans of 1943 were LEGAL. A surprisingly weak argument from you.
    If illegals are only here to work, how do you explain the high number of illegals incarcerated in our prisons for crimes? In California alone, the estimate is as high as 50%. How do you explain the situation of the MS-13 that has become absolutely critical in our nation? Did those people just come here to work? How do you explain the over 72,000 illegals a year that are arrested in the United States on drug charges alone?
    We need to start over.
    We need to take away all social benefits from illegals. No public housing, no driver’s licenses, no AFDC and WIC.
    We need to centralize our Social Security so that employers can check to make sure a number is legal and not like a friend of mine who found out that out of his 30 Mexican employees, 27 of them had SS numbers of dead people. Once we do that, we need to fine to the max, employers who knowing hire illegals.
    Those two things in themselves will create a massive exodus back to Mexico. No benefits from the government, no jobs and they will leave because there will be no benefit to staying.
    For those who do want to be here and work, if they are here illegally, they need to go to the back of the line for admission into the United States. There are plenty of people waiting to come that are willing to do it legally.
    Do you really understand who is behind all the pro-illegal movements? Do you understand that it is LaRaza (the race, of course), the reconquistas who want to take back California, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas and give it to Mexico, the ANSWER Internation group, and other far left organizations that do not have the best interest of our nation at heart and would impose a Marxist form of government upon U.S. citizens? And do you understand that we, in the border states, have had it? That we are tired of being taxed do death to pay for education, medical treatment and other social benefits for illegals? Do you even realize that most Tejanos (Texas born of Hispanic ethnicity) do not want the illegals here?
    Were the cities of Houston, Los Angeles, and others in worse shape before the Hispanic gangs like MS-13 arrived?
    There are always going to be illegals. But they should know the consequences of their actions and there should be no “santuary” cities that protect them.
    And one big problem we have no heard addressed; the Mexican government itself. Can you tell me why a nation that is the richest Spanish speaking nation in the world cannot support its own? Can you tell me why Vicente Fox is willing to dump his unwanted (because believe me, Fox does not want to have to take care of these people) on us? How many Mexican surgeons, lawyers, accountants, nurses, and other professionals are trying to sneak into the United States? How do you explain the fact that Fox has put his military on his southern border to keep out South Americans? He does not want immigrants but wants us to take his. What is wrong with that picture?
    If anyone doubts the harm of unchecked immigration, one only has to look to France. Is that where we are heading? Small pockets of nations within a nation that does not honor the host nation’s laws or cultures? I can tell you the answer is yes.
    And if poverty is the worry, what else are we doing but establishing a whole new segment of our society that will be damanding special treatment. The Hispanic poverty pimps are already out there. It is only a matter of time before they are asking for more than amnesty.

  4. AJStrata says:


    Frist off, I made no assumption they want to be citizens and I would expect most would not. So you are starting off not understanding my position at all.

    So what if most of the money goes back to their families out of country? Are you saying the government should dictate where we spend our money!

    I agree they need to assimilate, and the only way to make that happen is to bring them out into the open. The point I was making is the underground nature of keeping workers illegal simply because some bureacrat in DC picked the number of guest workers we could support is INSANE! That number is meaningless. If people find a steady job and our unemployment rate is 5% then we all have to admit we absorb more guest workers and let these people apply.

    This the stupidity of that dumbass number. There is no magic number of legal aliens every year. There are ebbs and flows in the capacity of work, mostly seasonal, where we simply need people to register and pay taxes when they find work!

    I know the problem, you simply do not have a workable solution.

    You can take a hike right off this site if you think I want anything to do with rounding up 11 million people because you can’t see any other solutions. Your lack of vision is not dictating my positions.

  5. FedUp says:

    You didn’t respond to what retire05 asked. “Do you really understand who is behind all the pro-illegal movements?”

    I’m afraid most people are not aware of the pro-illegal movements to which he refers.

    Former Mexican President has been quoted as saying, “We will not tolerate foreign forces dictating and enacting laws on Mexicans [living in the United States].” This was around the time Prop 187 in CA was passed – and then rejected by the courts.

    Mario Obledo…co-founder of MALDEF (Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund), has been quoted as saying, “We’re going to take over all the political institutions in California. In five years the Hispanics are going to be the majority population of this state.” That was in 1998…and he was the former Secretary of Health and Welfare.

    Another great quote – you are going to love this one! “Mexico is recovering the territories yielded to the United States by means of migratory tactics.” Elena Poniatowska, Mexican novelist

    “We are practicing La Reconquista in California.”, General Jose Angel Pescador Osuna 2/6/98

    “As goes the Latino population [s0] will go the state of California, and as goes the state of California [so] will go the United States of America. My friends, the stakes are big. This is a fight worth making.” Former Housing and Urban Development Secretary Henry Cisneros

    When people read quotes such as these, they become angry and frightened. When they want to put a stop to it, they are labeled stupid or racist or worse.

  6. retire05 says:

    NO, AJ, I am not saying that we should dictate where the money someone earns goes. What I am doing is killing the argument about how much the illegal contributes to our society.
    I have a workable solution, AJ. Stop the flow of societal benefits like public housing, AFDC; stop the employers who hire illegals and you will take care of a major portion of the problem.
    My lack of vision is also no less than you lack of the realities of the problems that illegals create everyday, especially in the border states.
    But if you perfer, I will not post again. It seems that you cannot argue without insulting me, (no humanity on my part) and pointing out that we are a nation of laws that these illegals thumb their nose at.

  7. AJStrata says:


    You brought up where they send their money – so therefore you made something of it.

    I am not against immigrants working if they pay their fare share. If you noticed what I wrote I specifically said that the underground nature of their work makes them rely on the socialist side of the programs.

    You can post all you want – but I did not insult you. I disagreed totally with you. You keep leaning towards punishment, as if working and raising a family is wrong. You mix the bad apples with the good people and only see the bad apples.

    You have no vision. You have recrimmination.

  8. AJStrata says:

    Fed Up,

    Actually I did respond in my post. I noted their were bad apples, but that means nothing.

    Should I smear all Americans with Geofry Dahmer’s crime? I find the extremists on the other side fighting with the extremists on the conservative side the reason we have no solutions and the problem continues.

    Yes, Tancredo and those anarchists on the pro immigration side are two sides of a bad penny in my opinion. Sorry that may pain people to hear. But there are some things I cannot support.

    And then there are those really bad ideas I will fight to my dying days…..

  9. flicka47 says:

    AJ said,
    “The illegal immigrant worker is the worker who was too far back in the line to be deemed a legal immigrant worker. ….The difference is one has papers and the other doesn’t.”

    No, the one bothered to get in line to get the papers,the other did not.

    Be that as it may the American Heritage Dictionary definition of Immigrate:

    im·mi·grate (im’i-grat’)
    Verb: im·mi·grat·ed, im·mi·grat·ing, im·mi·grates.
    To enter and settle permanently in a foreign country.

    So,by definition “guest workers” are NOT immigrants.

    It follows then that if they want to be “immigrants” and then citizens of the US,they have to follow the procedures already set up to become citizens and swear allegiance to the US,and forswear allegiance to a foreign government.

    “And for the immigrants that means major adjustments too.”

    “The biggest complaint about immigration is the most accurate, immigrants represent an out of proportion drain on social services. Immigrants need accept this as a real problem and stop pretending everytime someone brings it up they are racist and xenophibic.”

    Does that mean LaRaza and Mecha are out?

    Now then, can anybody explain to me what is wrong with Pres. Bush’s plan?? As opposed to all the loud mouths in Congress who are just looking for free campaign airtime?And really do not care about changing the status quo anyway?

  10. AJStrata says:


    Actually you have it wrong. The only thing that makes an illegal alien is they wanted the jobs that were being filled after the quota. The ‘line’ comment is a real nice sound bite – but that is not how it works. The line is for white collar, high tech jobs. The lower end jobs tend to have more need that people to fill them.

    But the point is, it is all based on some mythical number someone made up in DC. If that number is increased to cover the number of people the economy could support (i.e., an applicant had a job in hand) then there would be no ‘line’ at the border. There would be lines at the job sites to get an opening.

    But feel free to think a person is guilty because they are making a living and raising a family. Just don’t expect a lot of respect for it.

  11. parkbenn says:

    O.K. A.J., let’s say I buy the scam that we “need” illegals for business to have their cheap labor, and let’s say that “it’s a globalized world of business now” ( thank you NAFTA and CAFTA whackjobs ! ), my question to you is this ( and frankly I don’t hear any of the big business globalists NOR the “foaming at the mouth to get new voters from the illegals” democrats discussing this question….and the question is: HOW MANY illegals and HOW MANY legal immigrants do you want? Are you still stuck thinking this is 1906 and not 2006? Our country is severely over-crowded now at 300 + MILLION and skyrocketing ( and before you start your mantra, don’t even BEGIN to tell me this country is not over-crowded, or else spend the day driving in houston, l.a.,chicago, etc…like I do ). So, since we are ALREADY over-crowded at 300 Million, and since there are 6 BILLION people on the planet, then HOW do you propose to ration who comes here? I believe the republican and democrat plan is basically “Ya’all come here, ALL 6 BILLION, and as long as we get cheap votes and cheap labor, we don’t care that in the meantime, we will reduce every square inch of land to paved road and apartment complexes. The stupidity of not stopping this invasion is completely stunning, illogical, and dangerous.

  12. Eye on the Watcher’s Council…

    As you may know the members of the Watcher’s Council each nominate one of his or her own posts and one non-Council post for consideration by the whole Council. The complete list of this week’s Council nominations is here. The position on th…