May 30 2007
Poor Judgement Is Not The Same As Patriotism
I watched Special Report with Brit Hume and it was great to see the Immigration Hypochondriacs running amok again. Laura Ingraham was especially sad, and helpful to Bush’s cause. So was Rush (I bet you I lose my top 13 listing over this one). When Bush points out how heated rhetoric (like the word ‘amnesty’ and calling people “RINOs” and “Traitors) would only continue the status quo Ingraham felt her patriotism was being questioned. No dear, it was just your poor judgement. Stiff upper lip time.
The rantings by the far right on Immigration follows a long line of dissention with Bush, and all along the way the dissenters questioned everthing from Bush’s patriotism to his respect of life to his intelligence. It started with Harriet Miers (questioning his respect for life), went onto Dubai Ports (questioning is patriotism and protection of our nation) and now is onto Immigration (all of the above).
The fact is the far right has become intolerable of tolerance. They have been on a tear for purity, sacrificing progress at every turn. The examples they throw out of criminal elements inside the immigrant community are the kinds of concerns this bill will fix, yet the peddlers of those horror stories stand firmly against doing anything about them! Sorry folks, but poor judgement is not the same thing as being patriotic. The Liberals feel it is patriotic to surrender to al Qaeda. The far right is the same way about stopping the documenting of undocumented workers.
The far right has completely split the conservative coalition on many topics – the latest being immigration. The conservative coalition has been torn apart by these obstinate hardliners. Now it is patriotic to leave us with the very dangerous status quo, but unpatriotic to want to fix the problems. That is some crazy pretzel logic. Bush’s Sister Soldjah moment is working quite well, because he has the far right just babbling incoherently, and dangerously.
The schism started by the far right is now for real – and escalating. Rush Limbaugh is saying the far right will not back Bush on Iraq because he called them all their exaggerations. Hopefully for American, and the GOP, Rush is dead wrong. The Far Right staged their big pout in 2006 and left the nation with a Democrat Congress hell bent on giving al Qaeda their first win in the War on Terror. If the far right thinks they can stage another big pout and cement al Qaeda’s win, simply because many of us are tired of the endless excuses to not act on immigration, then they are treading on political extinction. Rush better rethink his comment. Blackmail doesn’t go over well with people. epecially if the blackmail entails letting al Qaeda win in Iraq so they can come after us here. That is as close to a death threat as I ever want hear.
If Laura and Rush want to now say they are withholding support for our efforts in Iraq until they get their silly way on immigration then we WILL call into question their patriotism. Right now it is only their judgement on this ONE issue that is lacking. They can be wrong on one issue and be forgiven. We are all human. However, they cannot hold a nation hostage with the threat of letting al Qaeda win Iraq and ever be forgiven.
The far right does not have the support they think they have. They have their echo chambers, but they do not have the poll numbers. I am one of a few willing to speak out clearly and passionately that the Conservative movement, on this one issue, is being led astray by the vocal talking heads – while the voters head towards another path. Laura and Rush can pout and confuse their judgement with patriotism all day long. But do not threaten us. That is a line that you will never cross back over. America is truly ready to dump the hot heads and support the hot ideas. The DC swamp needs to be drained. We can start with those making not-so-veiled threats against this nation.
terrye, you’re a phoney, you said:
Now this bill has provisions as part of the bill for enforcement, in fact it has more provisions for enforcement and security than we have ever seen in a bill before.
You don’t have a clue as to what is in the bill.
Tell me how many border agents it specifically says it will add. Tell me what the schedule is for hiring them.
Tell me when the probationary benefits for all illegals start and tell me when it ends. It’s all there in the bill and I’ll absolutely guarantee you that you don’t have any idea what the answer is. Not only that, you’ll avoid answering it because you don’t know the answer and don’t have any idea how to find out what the answer is. Not only that, you don’t want to know the answer because it might not support your blindly following the leader philosophy.
You want to prove I’m wrong, answer the questions.Now this bill has provisions as part of the bill for enforcement, in fact it has more provisions for enforcement and security than we have ever seen in a bill before.
Wow, just saw Sen McCain on O’Reilly.. the man is lost, has no clue. He doesn’t even have an inkling as to what’s in the bill. Everything he said, is not true. Just not true. 20,000 new agents. So far, not one single person that is supporting the bill has demonstrated any knowledge at all of what is in it. No one attempts to defend what’s in it, they just say we HAVE TO DO SOMETHING, EVEN IF IT’S WRONG.. nobody defends it. They just scream and have fits about the far right while not dending the bill itself. Unbelieveable…….
This is absurd.
The “hardliners”, code speak for 80% of America, want the border secured first. And I am willing to wager a 6 figure bet that after you secure the border, these “hardliners” (representing 80% of America) would be willing to go along with almost anything you want.
But instead of compromising with the 80% of America, the 20% wants to sling names and criticize the “hardliners” for not compromising. All the while, acting as if THEY are the ones in favor of compromise. Yea right. Can any one of you 20% please point to precisely how you are willing to compromise??????? Please.
Retire05,
You are living my worst nightmare. I’m actually afraid to check up on my credit report and SS account. I’m afraid to find out that I will have to go through what you are going through. I suppose it is only a matter of time until a large percentage of us will be forced to live that nightmare.
You have my sincere and heartfelt condolences. If there is anything I can do to help, let me know.
AJ, you used the phrase “far right” not once, not twice, but ten times in your post. You utilized hasty generalizations in charachterizing both the judgment and motives of those who disagree with you, in the same manner that you accused those very same conservatives of utilizing themselves in arguing their point. In your protestation of their fanatic behavior, you yourself come across as somewhat of a fanatic. examples:
“rantings by the far right…”
While it is true that some do nothing more than rant, you lump all those who disagree with you in the catagory of “ranters.”
“The fact is the far right has become intolerable of tolerance”
I have read most of your writing on this subject, and though you began (about a year ago) with a much calmer tone in your writings, you have recently reached a crecendo of pitch that looks a lot like the intolerance you are condemning.
“If Laura and Rush want to now say they are withholding support for our efforts in Iraq until they get their silly way on immigration then we WILL call into question their patriotism”
Go back and listen to Rush’s show. He specifically said that he WOULD NOT withhold his support of the president in Iraq. He said that he fears that many of his listners would not stick up for Bush in the future, but said that he would not. It seems as though your own intolerance has hurt your own ability to think (or listen) clearly. Go to Rush’s site it was in the second hour that he made those comments. IF you cant find it there AllahPundit at hot air has that portion of the show in transcript for. Read it.
Really AJ, normally you are pretty cool headed.
AJ here is what Rush Actually said
“I just wish he hadn’t done it because he’s not going to lose me on Iraq, and he’s not going to lose me on national security, he’s not going to lose me on the war on terror, but he might lose some of you, and that might mean losing some of your votes for other Republicans because the president’s not on any ballot anymore, but other Republicans are.”
AJ, what part of the bill provides that if a person applies for a “provisional” Z visa that they will not be given that provisional visa until the completion of the background check? How long is the goverment given to do the background check before they are required to give the “provisional” visa to the illegal?
What punishment is laid out for those illegals who have stolen the identity of Americans? What provisions are made for those who apply for a “provisional” visa and then let them expire and don’t renew them?
You say this is the best we can do? Why? Would you buy a house when you did not know how much the total cost would be, what the interest rate was going to be or how much your payments would be? That is what this bill does. It leaves more unanswered questions that answered one. Yet you want us to buy it anyway.
I have to ask why? What is your personal interest in this bill?
Your mischaracterization of Rush’s comments might be a sign that your own hazy vision is clouding your judgement. If you stop for a second you might see that you are mischaracterizing others as well. I will leave it to you do make those discoveries.
AJ, you have already lost, this bill, your credibility and a hell of a lot of respect. Now are you going to lose ugly or are you gonna be a gentleman about it? When twelve men tell you you’re drunk, sit down!
Dale:
The other day I saw a poll that showed 65% support for comprehensive immigration reform. I saw the poll at Big Lizards . The majority always supports such provisions when asked.
When I hear the hardliners talk about the polls, it reminds me of the nutroots saying, but look at the polls, the people want to bring the troops home. The polls are not the issue, the votes are.
And a couple of things, this bill does have border security first provisions, the right just refuses to believe they are for real. But then my guess is they would refuse to believe anything was for real.
And the other thing to remember, is that the Democrats are not going to care what people like Rush think. They are not going to just hand them what they want. Last year we went through this and the hardliners lost seats. Americans did not flock to support them. Tancredo is not going to be president. And if they defeat this there is no reason to believe they will do any better next time.
When Bush signed the fence bill that was the first time any president had ever supported anything like that. But because he supports a guest worker program these people are threatening to abandon him.
But my guess is they will put so much crap out there that they will kill this bill, just because people will want the debate to go away and then they will act as if they have done some great thing. Right up until they start bitching about something else. Probably a lack of border patrol agents or detention centers or whatever.
The far right is not promising to end anything but the only chance to fix the problem and to deport the criminal element.
A. The far right is not 80% of America. And if you think 80% of America == “the far right”, you need to seek professional help.
B. 80% of America wants to STOP THE PROBLEM FROM GETTING ANY WORSE. Why that o’ so simple concept eludes you is beyond me.
Apache,
Doing nothing is not solving the problem. And no amount of spin will change the fact the far right opposes everything but that which will never pass.
Dale – same analysis. Sorry, but I am wedded to reality. Stopped believing in the tooth fairy (or the immigration fairy) years ago.
Dale:
The other day I saw a poll that showed 65% support for comprehensive immigration reform. I saw the poll at Big Lizards . The majority always supports such provisions when asked.
When I hear the hardliners talk about the polls, it reminds me of the nutroots saying, but look at the polls, the people want to bring the troops home. The polls are not the issue, the votes are.
And a couple of things, this bill does have border security first provisions, the right just refuses to believe they are for real. But then my guess is they would refuse to believe anything was for real.
And the other thing to remember, is that the Democrats are not going to care what people like Rush think. They are not going to just hand them what they want. Last year we went through this and the hardliners lost seats. Americans did not flock to support them. And if they defeat this there is no reason to believe they will do any better next time. Just scaring people into not supporting this bill will not gaurantee the next one will be better, in fact probably the opposite.
When Bush signed the fence bill that was the first time any president had ever supported anything like that. But because he supports a guest worker program these people are threatening to abandon him.
But my guess is they will put so much crap out there that they will kill this bill, just because people will want the debate to go away and then they will act as if they have done some great thing. Right up until they start bitching about something else. Probably a lack of border patrol agents or detention centers or whatever.
Patrick, the question needs to be (a) this bill or (b) nothing? Only the immigrant hypochondriacs will support nothing and claim it as victory.
only you are framing this discussion in those words. everyone else that i read says it like this:
“enforce the border first and then discuss the steps for legalization”
basically it’s terrye and yourself who have been the hypochondriacs yelling its this bill or nothing along with all the name calling. over a year and a half ago i championed a ten year green card for everyone leading to citizenship with no conditions–no back taxes, no fine, nothing. but, and this is the big but–the border must be completely sealed so illegal immigration across the southern border ends–once and for all. it is this same secure fence that then keeps out the criminals we deport. my view has not changed and as i predicted it resonated with the vast majority of americans with the few exceptions noted above.
the problem with this bill is not necessarily its components, some do need to be re written, its with the timing of enactment. as in all previous bills dating back to 1965 the giveaways came before enforcement. this bill does the same. written provisions mean nothing as the past has proven. completely secure the border first
and all is possible in america! in fact most of the illegals here would build it for free to get their citizenship!
cheer up there will be a bill as i said all along. it will be enforcement first followed by the goodies……..the nation can endure the status quo a little longer if that is what it takes.
Bikerken – too funny. When you find 12 gentlemen let me know.
The fact is those supporting guest worker programs massively outnumber the hard liners. Who, BTW, are now forever out of power. Just a note: watch Tancredo, he will be doing a Ned Lamont in 2008.
AJ,
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. I would rather do nothing, than do something that makes the problem even worse.
This bill makes the problem even worse. It will create a stampede on our borders.
If my house is on fire, I am not going to pour gasoline on it. That is what this bill does. It makes us an even bigger magnet for illegal immigrants prior to securing our borders. If the problem that we are trying to solve is illegal immigration, that is one heck of a stupid strategy.
We are throwing gasoline on the fire.
You are absolutely right. I have been doing a little number crunching for today’s Pink Flamingo. I think you might find it fascinating.
SJReidhead
The Pink Flamingo
AJ, Terrye, when such a large majority of Americans, both HARD left and HARD right, as you would say, are against something, you have to realize that you are the soft middle minority. Open your eyes, EVERYBODY in America with a small exception are against this steaming pile of legislation! You have obviously not read the thing, I have, and it is as full of loopholes and downright deception as it can be. The stone cold fact is that ANYBODY, mexican, guatemalan, terrorist, can cross the border with a note in his pocket that says they were here before 2007 and ICE CANNOT TOUCH THEM!!!! Don’t you get the implications of that situation? And I’m not talking out of my ass like so many of you who are constantly pushing this bill but refusing to acknowledge that the “smal problems” with the bill make it a total disaster. I work with ICE, FBI, CIA and all of the agents I have talked to say this would effective put handcuffs on them in many many different situations. By protecting the illegal, you protect the terrorists, the identity theives, the child molesters who will all crawl under the same umbrella. Has it ever occured to you that any criminal felon who wants to establish a new ID will use this to pose as a Mexican and get a whole new identity courtesy of the federal govt? That could make them eligible to buy guns, vote, and do many things they lost the right to do as a felon. Now tell me how I’m exaggerating. Again, I know what I’m talking about, I work with this crap every day. This is what happens when you throw common sense out the window for emotionalism, when you decide you can’t trust a white man to rinse out your gutters.
Once you start to throw away the law because it is too hard to enforce, then you have to start throwing away the other laws because they become inconvienent too. I’m sorry, but you guys are just plain wrong on this. When support for something is at 16%, and sinking, you have lost, face it.
Pretty soon we can stop calling it Mexican food and just call it food.
Well, AJ that was a good very specific answer to some of the questions you have been asked about WHY you are supporting this Amnesty bill. The numbers are getting better and better for defeat in the Senate, I thought we were gonna have to depend on the House to defeat it, now i’m pretty sure it’s doomed in the Senate.
So far, not one single person that says they are for this bill have responded to a single question asked about it. Not one.
That tells me they are only supporting it for personal reasons that have zip to do with whether it is a good bill or not. In fact, I’m beginning to believe that not one single supporter even has a clue as to what is in it.
It gives blanket forgiveness(some might call it amnesty)(hardliners like me) to every single illegal in the country. All of them, not just 99% of them, 100% get unequivocal forgiveness and can stay forever or until their string of appeals(taxpayer supported attorneys) run out, which will be somewhere around 2050 or later.
Face it, there is no good reason to support it, if there were, someone would be defending the bill. No one is defending it.
enforcement:
I read that there are supposed to be an additional 18,000 more border agents added to the numbers.
I also read that there are stricter employer penalties than we have seen before, the difficulty is making the thing work of course.
When do all the probationary times begin and end? I don’t know, I never said I did. I have not read the bill, I never said I did. I did not read the last farm bill either. And I can promise you there are people out there right now raising hell about this bill who have not read it themselves.
If this bill is not passed or amended so that it can be passed will any of these people be deported? If so, when? If we just “enforce the laws” exactly how when will the laws be enforced? Will we actually go after all the Americans who have broken the law? If not, which ones? How long will that take?
I am not a phony, but I know that a lot of the people who are the most irate about all this did not do a damn thing for years about it and now that someone is trying to deal with the problem, they accuse Senators like Kyl and McCain and even Bush of deliberately trying to betray them. If there are things in the bill that people think are wrong, then they should try to fix it… not kill it.
Speaking of following the leader, Rush has a following of his own and they don’t doubt or question him. Not at all.
I am not a phony. I don’t pretend I have read the bill. I also do not think that McCain and Bush are out to destroy the country.
Bikerken:
If that is true why aren’t there more Tancredos in the House? Why did the hardliner who I voted for in my district, Hostettler, get beat by the moderate Democrat?
I would support a border wall, both high tech and physical in some places and a guest worker program and an ID. I honestly do not have a great burning desire to see these folks become citizens and I do want the gangs gone.
The point I am trying, however badly to make, is that you can talk about polls all you want, but the truth is the Democrats are not going to let the kind of bill the conservatives want to come up for a vote. There is no indication whatsoever of that. I don’t care what the polls say, when people went to vote…they voted for people less likely to support a hardline position. I do think that conservatives can kill the bill and then when Hillary or Obama becomes president and the Republicans lose more seats in the House and they are looking at something far worse, they can once again talk about the polls.
It is not true to say there are no border security provisions in the bill and it is not true to say that it can not work, but it is true to say that if they kill this bill then the Democrats and the moderates can claim that there was a border security bill out there and the hardliners refused to support it because they were too paranoid the government.