Oct 23 2006

Embryonic Stem Cell Snake Oil

Published by at 2:02 pm under All General Discussions,Stem Cell Debate

Important updates at the end

Stem cell treatments could unlock a host of new therapies which could turn the tide on many of our toughest diseases. Basically the idea is to do a cell transplant so that genetic defects can be corrected with an infusion of new DNA or of new cells. The problem is that such a new concept in medicine, going well beyond the limb, tissue and organ transplants of today, will have all the challenges those therapies have plus many new ones. The recent Michael J Fox ad for the Democrat in MO has brought this promise and the frauds surrounding it into focus this election. So I am going to do another one of my long posts on a matter I know because it is right up my ally as a biologists and an engineer. Stem Cell research is the epitome of bio-engineering. It is an effort to manipulate life on a scale that is like nothing seen before. And no one is explaining this to the American people they way it needs to be explained. I will attempt to give it a shot.

I will do the science of the challenge, address the science and ethics of Embryonice Stem Cell Research (ESCR) and the killing of human beings, and the snake oil sales pitch that is being hoisted on America. I have to jump from one to the other, but these are the three problems with the debate today. And let me begin with the snake oil salesmen. Micheal J Fox is like so many people facing a terrible and uncorrectable change in their life. He wants out of it. He wants to change course. And he is desparate to try whatever he can to avoid the fate ahead of him. But he is not the bad person here. The criminals are the scientists who know better, who know Stem Cell research will not come in time to save him, who know that adult stem cell research (ASCR) and therapies have a better chance of success than ESCR, and that humans will be destroyed under ESCR unless we can create a pseudo embryo – but even then these are clones and still humans. It is these experts who are clearly not being honest with Fox, and whom I despise the most. They are lying to Fox and teasing him with false hope. So how do I know these are false hopes? The scope of the problem is so complex it baffles the mind, but there are many facts which are known, and not being explained.

The Anchoress, who I ‘met’ over the ESCR issue, has a good post out today highlighting the problematic results of ESCR to date. Especially the consistent problem of tumors and uncontrolled cell growth in response to ESCR therapies. ESCR is a process to integrate cells and DNA in a manner never before tried, and therefore poses a host of challenges. The challenges are manifold and follow the progression from an undifferentiated stem cell (a neutral cell type) to a target cell (a specific cell type like a liver, skin or nerve cell), and then to target tissue and organs (which are a collection of cell types which create the liver, and skin, etc). The first step is for the stem cell to translate into a target cell type. How this happens is completely unknown at this time. We know the general process involves a sequence of activating and deactivating genes under controlled chemical and evironmental conditions – conditions which change from step to step. But that is like knowing that to do brain surgery we need to open up the skull and repair damaged areas. Generally correct, impossible to implement if that is all we know.

When stem cells start changing in an uncontrolled manner you end up with the tumors and other uncontrolled cell growth. The mixing of the DNA from the embryo – which is a unique human individual – with the DNA of the patient leads to all sort of new genetic combinations that could take the stem cell process into any number of deadly paths. Few living organism just randomly throw the genetic code against anothers in this way (virsus are a telling exception). The process of procreation doesn’t work this way. Scientists know this, some just seem unwilling to fess up how different this Stem Cell process is from the natural one.

Thus the ESRC has to go from a totally neutral state to a target state without any flaws in order to work. With tens of thousands of genes that need to be sequenced correctly, each with all the right conditions going into and out of each step, we are discussing a problem with 100’s of millions of combinations to work out. Each experiment to work out one step could take years. Do the math. We may get lucky, but we need to know a lot more than we do today to safely control this process. That is why most therapies are crap shoots. Throw the stem cells into a mix of chemicals and conditions and throw them into the ‘patient’ and see what happens. What happens is a continous set of surprising and wrong results.

ASCR therapies do not suffer the same challenges. The reason is much of the combinations of sequences have been taken off the table because adult stem cells are partially differentiated. They are somewhere between a target cell and a stem cell. They can still adapt and reconfigure the cell to a new configuration. Basically their cell type is not locked in. This is why these cells tend to show better results. Fewer variables means a faster path to a solution. Math 101. Again, scientist know this to be the case, but somehow the snake oil salesmen never admit this to be the case or they simpy attempt to change the subject. That is why I despise them so much.

But the ethics are another big issue here. In adult stem cell research we use cells from the patient (hence the avoidance of tissue rejection and no risk of combining two DNA codes and creating dangerous, hybrid results). ESCR must destroy a human being, because the term ’embryo’ defines a stage of an individual’s life. Only human individuals have an ’embryonic’ phase. Human cells do not. Tissues and organs do not. You must be a distinct human being to be an embryo. A living organism is made up of cells, which make up tissue and organs and fluids (like blood). Embryos are not a group of cells like skin or an appendix. They are a living organism. Science so dictates and this is not open to debate. One can only display ignorance or duplicity (depending on their education in biology and medicine) to argue otherwise.

Strangely enough, this fact can be proven scientifically in a manner that can hold up in a court of law. The method is the same that is used now to convict or free people of murder and rape and other crimes. It is the DNA test. Since we can extract stem cells we have their DNA, and this can be tested against the mother and the father. And the results will be shockingly clear to those who don’t understand biology – but are obvious to those of us who do understand genetics. There will be not even the slightest possibility that an embryo can be considered part of the mother – its DNA is that different. While syblings can be close matches, children and parents are night an day. Of course half the DNA is identical to the parent, but half is not (being from the other parent). That makes the DNA test not even a close call.

DNA is the ultimate test of an individual, biologically speaking. We talk about species and subspecies, but we use DNA now to show one form of frog found on one side of the Amazon is a different species from an nearly identical frog on the other side. When the older measurements of zoology fall by the wayside (e.g., spine or no spine) in identifying the species of any organism, DNA is the final and arbitrating test. Therefore it is also clear an embryo has to be a human being of the species homo sapien sapien, and nothing else.

The DNA test, legally recognized in any court of law in the land, will demonstrate with 100% repeatability the human embryo is (a) human, (b) a unique individual of the human race, and (c) therefore an idividual human organism – a distinct human being. It is well past time these facts be brought to a court and established as a foundation for all policy issues. Because ignorance is not an excuse. Yes, this will roil the abortion issue, but this fact it is a complicating fact of life doesn’t make it any less true.

So why do these snake oil salesmen lie and say they need to kill human beings to save other (rich) human beings from the ravages of their own genetic defects? The fact is ESRC is not required on any human until they demonstrate they can take a stem cell and transform it safely into a state that will correct a genetic defect. Even a simple one (like baldness). This can be done in any mammal (rats, mice, apes) right now. And that is where is should stay until people demonstrate the can control this mixing of genes at a level were all sorts of bad genetic combinations can arise. But the snake oil salesmen know there is no Intellectual Property worth anything at the animal level. To make the billion$ they want they need to be first to the human therapies And so they want to experiment on humans in the hopes they may trip over the magic solution and fulfill their dreams of playing God (and getting well paid for the gig). That is another aspect of the ESCR battle which needs to be explained. As long as an embryo is not legally considered a human being, that human’s DNA is not considered theirs and untouchable by medical business interests. Another aspect the snake oil salesmen never seem to be able to be up front about. So they kill an embryo and steal the DNA and claim they own it (and all cures associated with it). Is there anything more horrific than this?

The ESRC debate has been floating on a sea of misinformation and myth that rivals the Global Warming debate. In the case of ESCR there is not doubt. Embryo’s are human beings. This can and should be proven in a court of law using the same DNA testing that is common today. Once that lie has been exposed, we can work to expose the other lies being sold by those ESCR proponents waving their cure-all snake oil. We do not want to see more victims like MJ Fox on TV begging for something that doesn’t exist. That ad was a terrible abuse of a suffering human being. This abuse needs to end so people know what the reality is.

Addendum: I want to address two posts from the Anchoress which demonstrate my points. They reflect the difference between the ESCR and ASCR approaches and their totally divergent results. But I tripped over somethings so ironic I had to point it out. The doctor, Steven Goldman, who just made headlines about the tumors caused in ESCR works for the Micheal J Fox foundation [scroll to the bottom]. Tragic irony. So while the easily expected devastating results from ESCR continue, the ASCR results show much more promise (and is an area being investigated by Dr. Goldman as well) and no long term issues. Why? The cells are from the patient so the mixing of DNA cannot cause surprises. ESCR claims embryonic stem cells do not cause tissue rejection. That is because they do not trigger the immune system right away and cause the patient to destroy the alien cells. This could be a good thing or a bad thing, as people with AIDS know. Their defense systems do not trigger either. This means any bad genetic intermixing may take days, months or years to show itself. And once it has survived for any period of time in a human, it can become part of a virus and spread to other humans. We are not knowledgeable enough to play God yet.

Update: It seems the good Dr not only works for the Michael J Fox (and Christopher Reeves) foundation, he is one of those who concurs with my view that the adult stem cell solutions are more manageable because the adult stem cells have progressed through some of their differentiation, but still remain pliable and therefore resources for replacement cells. Dr Goodman has used the gene in stem cells (not the stem cells themselves) which holds their differentiation at bay to create nerve “progenitor” cells that can remain in the precursor state indefinitely. This allows the cells to be suspended in a state indefinitely until they are applied to the patient’s damaged area and make the final transition to a neuron cell and possibly replace damaged cells. Here is his comment about the benefit from this adult stem cell path:

While stem cells receive a great deal of attention as a possible source of life-saving treatments, progenitor cells offer great potential, Goldman says. To be sure, progenitor cells lack a key feature of stem cells: Their potential to become nearly any type of cell. But what progenitor cells lack in potential, they make up for with commitment: They have already “decided” exactly what type of cell to become in the body, an advantage when treating a disease where one specific cell type is at risk. A patient with Parkinson’s disease, for example, may only needs to replace dopamine-producing neurons, while in patients with multiple sclerosis, only cells that produce myelin need be restored.

Clearly a leading neurologists working for Michael J Fox illustrates the fallacy of the ad Fox was in. Fox should be promoting Goodman’s ASCR work more and doing fewer political ads.

36 responses so far

36 Responses to “Embryonic Stem Cell Snake Oil”

  1. Stem Cells = Tumor?…

    A very disquieting news report that should really bother those who are strong proponents of embryonic stem cell research. It is very preliminary, but it is also very frightening.
    Steven Goldman and colleagues at the University of Rochester Me…

  2. jwb says:

    Good overview, AJ.
    BTW: it seems that Michael goes off his meds when doing these PSA type promotions for ESCR to accent his physical problems–another lie unto itself.

  3. Limerick says:

    Great post AJ. ….abortion has always been such a horror to me, my #1 beef against the progressives….I just don’t understand how we can NOT consider an embryo a human being……..I clipped your post……thanks. It goes in the ‘take that’ file….with full credit to you of course.

  4. The Macker says:

    AJ,
    Good and smart post.

    Your arguments take the arbitraryness out of the definition of being human.The old definitions like birth, age, survivability etc. always discriminate against some members of our species.

    And we can’t call ourselves civilized if we cannabalize our youngest or destroy our oldest and sickest.

  5. Michael J. Fox Ad for McCaskill Airs During World Series…

    O.K., so the video below about the McCaskil Vandals is old news I learn. This video is the latest outrage.
    The Anchoress has this one covered.
    feel badly for Michael J Fox, and for the father of my former neighbor who worked his garden while h…

  6. For Enforcement says:

    I agree with your stance on ESCR, and since you mentioned global warming, I just have to say this.
    O’Reilly had a climate expert on to answer the question “what the heck is going on?” This was in response to the man in Florida getting hit by a sting ray, similar to Steve Irwin. Her answer: Global warming.

    Got that? The sea temps have risen some one degree over the last many many years (ignoring the fact that ocean temps are actually down this year, that’s why there were less hurricanes) and that has cause sea animals to change their habits. That’s a real laugher, side splitting knee slapper. O’Reilly asked, is it causing them to sweat or something?
    I happen to raise aquarium fish, and the temp regularly changes up to a couple degrees and I see zero difference in their actions. If the temp is at the higher end of the scale, they DO NOT get more aggressive.
    Why do people lie about these things? Money, Money, Money. It’s that simple.

  7. owl says:

    Enforcement….I could not believe what O’Reilly said……that’s what you can call a true convert.

    AJ…..thanks for writing on a very complicated subject in a manner that is easy to read and understand. You always shed more light.

  8. BIGDOG says:

    Ummmmm…i live in Missouri and i will be voting for this initiative. I have noticed many misleading and flat out lies about Amendment 2 from its opposition. I suggest reading the initiative and not buy into the rhetoric.

    The Stem Cell Initiative will establish clear and enforceable guidelines for regulating research, treatments and cures that are legal under federal law. And, it strictly bans any attempt to clone a human being. Not to mention the private funding involved.

    Yeh i can imagine some politicians not liking something they cant get their greedy hands on….go figure.

    you can read the entire text here also.

    http://www.missouricures.com/facts.php

  9. AJStrata says:

    Big Dog,

    If you are pro-life you cannot support that Bill. I am sorry but ‘cloning’ is the process of taking an experimental embryo to term instead of killing it for parts. It is just another aspect of the misinformation campaign.

    Note the Bill claims “Stem Cell Research” and doesn’t differentiate between adult and embryonic research. Another clear signal this is an attempt to trick well intentioned people into believing the snake oil salesmen. There are no legal restrictions – none – on adult stem cell research. It is not illegal to create a cure from the existing stem cell lines (the embryo’s are dead, there is no way to change that fact). The snakeoil salesmen want permission to kill more embryos – period.

    I cannot tell you how to vote. But if you are asking me is the Bill saying what you think it is – it is not. It is making legal the destruction of a human life for all time. Your call. But this is an attempt to trick people, in my humble opinion. Actually, I am 100% certain this is propaganda because Stem Cell treatments are not ever going to correct Alzeihmers. That is a well established view even within the pro ESCR community. When you see Alzeihmers you know there is a con going on.

  10. BIGDOG says:

    You havent read the Missouri initiative and you are aware that there are many countries and like 5 US states that do have ESR already. UNtil the natural order of fertilization occurs, no life exists.

    Im also concerned why this thread was removed from your front page.

  11. AJStrata says:

    BigDog,

    I went to the link you provided and read it and it is not what you think. And to let you in on a little scientific fact, you cannot have an embryo unless conception (fertilization) has occurred. The embryo, having the joined DNA of mother and father, is a human being. What do you think I have been saying? And the post moved off the front page because I wrote more posts, nothing more.

    I did not expect you to like my answer, but you have to recognize the fact it is the right answer. Also, since you didn’t understand an embryo is the result of conception it is a clear indication you do not know your biology as well as I do. Which makes sense since I have a BS in biology. I am sorry to shatter your misconceptions, but that is why I cannot abide these snakeoil salesmen.

  12. Barbara says:

    Isn’t it a shame tactics are used to tug the strings of the heart about stem cell research? These people know Americans are sympathetic to the sick and helpless. This is how they get their initiatives through. They use the natural optimism of Americans making them believe in these cures, and cloud the issue that this is just another form of abortion. They promise that stem cells will cure everything when they know as of yet they cure nothing. These people have no respect for human life. They have shown this over and over again. To them we are all life forms that can be manipulated for their ends in one way or another. What it boils down to is money and always has been. The same is true of global warming. How can people be so stupid as to believe in global warming when two decades ago the same people were touting global cooling heralding the ice age? The biggest problem the US faces is short term memory loss and stem cell research will not cure this.

  13. BIGDOG says:

    Ummm… you obviously missed what i was saying and yes i do agree an embryo is a fertilized egg staging process. So i will attempt to clarify. What i refered to was “natural order of fertilization”, in that a SCNT cell is not a natural order of fertilization, a kin to IVF (in vitro fertilization). Both are unobtainable embryonic results without unnatural interferences, within a controlled enviroment. Unlike the fun way…:) To me any staging process outside the fun way is not a natural occurence and therefore is not considered life, as to say the IVR process re-inserts the embryo back into the womb.

    Are you against IVR?

    “SCNT is a recent medical breakthrough that provides a way to use a patient’s own cell and a donated, unfertilized human egg to make ES cells in a lab dish that will match the patient’s genetic makeup. These stem cells, or specialized cells made from them, could then be transplanted into the patient’s body to cure a disease or injury by generating healthy new cells and tissues, such as heart, muscle or nerve cells.”

    This IS NOT about cloning babies or sheep for that matter. If you understand the process of SCNT….BS in biology eh?…. you do
    recognize this is about developing cells, i also recognize it can lead to human cloning. Yet under current federal guidlines, this is not premissable. Furthermore to obtain stem cells that are genetically matched to the donor organism will help with ISR (immune system rejections). Further research is needed and damnit im not going to block it. Oh and i am still voting for Talent that hasnt changed, and McKlaskil has been busted for running false ads.

    My vote will dictate, let the current work in missouri continue under federal watch, with private funding and SCNT is not about cloning human beings but about further research.

  14. BIGDOG says:

    I messed up i need to clarify further:

    [To me any staging process outside the fun way is not a natural occurence and therefore is not considered life, as to say the IVR process re-inserts the embryo back into the womb.]

    To me any staging cellular process, outside the fun way, is not a natural occurence and therfore is not considered as natural occurence of life persay, but rather a cellular developement outside the mothers womb. After its process of cellular divisions; sometimes several embryos are reinserted back into the mothers womb for the now, in hopes for a natural duration.

    Are you against IVR?

  15. BigDog, you advocate experimenting with human beings as a solution to our physical and mental problems. Another group of people were for that back in the middle part of the last decade. They were known as the Nazis.

    We need more people like you to show us how scary it would be if Dems get back in power. You say:

    “To me any staging process outside the fun way is not a natural occurence and therefore is not considered life, ”

    So all the people who were conceived through IVF, not the “fun way”, are not considered life?

  16. AJStrata says:

    BigDog,

    Maybe you should stop while you are behind. The process is the same, the location makes no difference. You put and egg and sperm in close proximity the ‘natural’ process takes place. There is not ‘staging’. Please stop demonstrating why people who are not versed in a subject should not pretend to be experts. The result is a humanbeing and nothing else.

    You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Don’t make yourself look any worse. Vote as you wish, but that Bill in MO is to make clones legal. The very thing you say you are against.

  17. AJStrata says:

    Yes BD, I have a BS in biology and after reading your first comment (I see them in reverse order) I say with certainty you would fail HS biology. As Marchtogether pointed out, by your ‘logic’ (and you have no idea how it pains me to use that word in this instance) an IVF child is not human.

    I am truly stunned how misinformed and naive you are on this. Our education system is failing us terribly.

  18. the good doctor says:

    As a physician and scientist I can tell you tha fertilize egg is not a staging experiment. No difference from fertilization in uterus. The sad point is that people like BD will kill a baby with no after thoughts but will scream if someone clubbed a baby seal.

  19. For Enforcement says:

    BigDog, I too, read that link you posted and believe me, it is all double speak. It is totally misleading and the result would be exactly the opposite of what they are trying to make you believe.

    AJ has already said it, but I find it remarkable that you don’t consider humans that were a product of IVR to be real people. Interesting concept, to say the least.

    Yes, you need a few more years of biology classes, it sounds like.

  20. AJStrata says:

    Good Doctor,

    Thank you for confirming my positions. As you may know I never went into biology or medicine and instead went into systems engineering. I appreciate the more experienced voice chiming in.

    Thanks, AStrata