Jun 12 2007
Lori Byrd Asks For Mature Debate
I applaud Lori Byrd’s attempt to call for civil debate inside the GOP – but sadly it is too late. The Immigration Hypochondriacs (sorry, but that phrase is too good not to use), despite their smoke screens, are against fines and reparation of back taxes for long term illegal aliens to pay their debt to society and to become legal workers. They cannot abide this resolution. We won’t get into how those in glass houses (those who even once drove a car intoxicated) could claim a first time DUI charge should be less severe than working without papers. But the point is the facade fell off the far right’s intentions a long time ago. They are nativists and want revenge on the immigrants. Some, like Tancredo and Buchanan, want all immigration shut down. Others (and polls show this) want deportation or to make life here so bad people leave. In all cases they want more than the crime calls for when you look at other crimes and other punishments.
Sorry, I am not in the crowd who likes to inflict excess pain on others to make themselves feel superior. And all the lipstick the far right applies will not change the fact that at the core of their ever shifting rationales and incoherent logic is their true goal: get the illegal immigrants out. They will never support a bill that provides any path to legality – no matter what the fine. The fact they are both unreasonable and unrealistic means nothing to them. And that is why they lashed out at Bush and the supporters of this bill. It does not matter how civil they try to make their hate. It does not matter how eloquently they rationalize their need to inflict suffering on people who came here to work. It does not matter how many excuses they concoct to feel good about their obsession with revenge. They will never move me to the dark side!
I stand proudly with Bush, Kyle, McCain, Kennedy, The Anchoress and many others. And I will not ever stand with the Buchannans, Tancredos, and the Ingrahams. I do not care if occasionally their blinders lift and they agree with me on Iraq or lower taxes or any other issue. I don’t care if they can be civil and gracious on other topics. The fact is they cannot maintain the facade on all issues, and that means problems. Great for them when they concur and they do so civilly. But the test is when you don’t agree – that is what defines strong alliances.
They exposed a side of them that showed so much anger and vitriol I cannot ever see a way to align my good name with their withering hate. We could ally again – but the mea culpa required on their side is way too much for them to swallow to bridge the gap. Not to gain the limited support of this small blogger. I know this. I am fine with this.
After what these people showed us on this issue (like Billbo’s brief transition when he sees the one-wring on Frodo when they are with the elves) it tells me there is a dangerous element at work that is not under their control. When you can call our President a traitor, and equate him with Adam Gadahn, you have forever left me behind. Go where you must. But you go without me. There are other, better, brighter paths out there. I have lost interest in this one which has so much baggage it would be cleaner for my eternal soul if I stayed away. I cannot muster that much animosity agains a human being trying to make a living and raise a family. That wil always pale to the person who drives recklessly and risks people’s lives. Always. Call me when we deport Americans for driving dangerously, then we can talk.
BigLsufan:
Yes, that is what pisses me off. The sheer stupidity of it.
Some guy running for office can get people hooping and hollering by saying he will enforce the laws and secure the borders!!!!
They say it because it is what people want to hear.
But then they never explain how they will do it. What is their plan and if they are a minority where will they get the votes to do whatever it is they claim so sanctimoniously they can do?
Meanwhile, they are alienating one of the largest demographic groups in America. When someone like Linda Chavez writes what she did, a smart politician should be thinking…this woman was in Reagan’s government, she is a conservative, she is hispanic and she is talking about obscene and insulting emails from socalled conservatives. This is not good….instead they put gas on the fire. They are eating their own..again…as usual. Who wants to support a party which spends most of time attacking its own leadership and running off large segments of the population? Political parties survive by winning elections and governing effectively with an appreciation for the opinions of the country as a whole.
I know people do not like a lot of things in the bill, but they do not own the whole country…encouraging them to think otherwise can backfire big time.
For instance when it came to abortion prolifers may have wanted an outright ban on abortion, but they took what they could get. A ban on partial birth abortion, parental notification etc. These things were seen as steps in the right direction. They did not say that they either had to get an all out ban or nothing.
Sorry, SallyVee if the Marine Corp anthem bothers you. And anyone who likes Marilyn Manson has rocks in their heads and a total lack of appreciation for an art form called “music”.
Macker, most of the time the simpliest solution is the only solution. When you start convoluting a problem by over applifing the solution, you only increase the problem.
As to the stand MacMind too in the “death” of the GOP, and his response to AJ, look no farther than Mac’s own post:
http://www.macsmind.com/wordpress/2007/06/10/the-gop-will-do-just-fine-after-the-immigration-fight
It seems that someone whom AJ wishes to use to make a point does not agree with AJ and is so specific.
Terrye, you’re wrong about CQ, he was an advocate of the bill until he READ it. At that point he started talking about improvements but then it was apparrent that the normal process was being abandoned here to stuff it through with out much scrutiny. Then he started to question what was really going on here and he changed his tune. He is still not against the main premise of the bill but he is absolutely opposed to the back room secrecy and off the table manuevering that the senate used to do this. Now he is only saying that the underhanded process is what killed the bill. He has never taken a stance against the content of it.
Forgive me if this sounds like an ‘I told you so.’ I posted a few weeks ago that this bill would doom McCains bid for the presidency and Thompson would shoot right to the front if he got in. Well, I was only partially right, McCain has already fallen off the earth and Thompson is tied for first with Rudy right now, but he really isn’t even in yet!
Retire:
I don’t think it was the Marine Corps Anthem that was the bother, it was the “my country sucks and it is all a plot that has been going on for 20 years stuff” that followed it.
After all, the implication seems to be that the tens of millions of Americans who have somehow dealt with these awful illegals are all bad Americans. I guess that also means everyone who eats produce or drinks grape juice and wine is tainted as well. That is just about everyone. After all 20 years is a long time.
I have to agree it is weird.
I think using the Marine Corps Anthem to make a political point about immigration is kind of like emotional blackmail myself.
Let’s see, what branch of service was the traitor McCain serving in when he was shot down and captured by the enemy? And how many times in the course of this debate have you heard him use his service and sacrifice to his country to make points in the debate about illegal immigration?
Bikerken:
Whatever, I don’t care what either one of you says.
I think the fact that people can only support a Senate bill if they agree with absolutely everything in it tells us that they are either immature or not serious about a solution.
It also tells me they do not understand how the government works, how bills are written, what it means to go through the process or what the role of majority and minority mean.
They just sound like spoiled brats who have decided that if they can’t get what they want then nobody gets anything. Their tactic is to bully and blackmail everyone into kissing their behinds. They think that if they raise enough hell they will get everyone to go along just to shut them up. After all it worked with Dubai.
The problem is they have no plan for what to do to make things better, their only plan is for what NOT to do. Well good luck, maybe you will succeed in keeping the status quo around so you can bitch about it forever.
Ed took a lot of crap and was under a lot of pressure to follow the herd of lemmings off the cliff.
So he did. Like I said, I don’t care.
and btw, there were all kinds of hardliners who made it plain before this bill was ever released that they would not support any kind of reform bill. They never even pretended to give it a chance, their goal from the outset was to kill the bill no matter what was in it.
Seems to me Strata said a few hateful things about , among other rather innocuous statesmen…Chuck Hagel.
But I might be confusing him with other armchair Iraq warriors-to-a-fault over here.
Terrye: Ah….okay, that’s real intelligent!
You got tired of the “debate” over at Capt’s, so you came to a place where the “analysis” AGREES with what you believe, so you don’t have to debate!
Kind of proves mine, and Bikerken’s, and everyone else’s agreement!
You don’t want Debate, thust facts, nor anything else, you just want it done, NOW, because YOU want it!
Nice!
And as far as following the link to Capt’s great; don’t who can force you, especially thru a Blog!
Geez, but again, you all are calling us “ostriches”, and then look at your responses!
Real mature!
That is all our point’s exactly, about you AJ, and the rest: NO DEBATE, NO QESTIONS; what WE WANT, NOW, on a fundalmentally FLAWED Bill, we don’t WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT, just PASS IT NOW, BECAUSE WE SAID SO!
No debate, no discussion, no improvments, JUST PASS IT!
Wow, nice, real mature of you all!
You know what, I read “blogs” too, and I do watch a bit of TV, where is all this calling John McCain a “traitor” and Bush a “traitor” and all this other crap you and AJ and others post here?
Provide one link, that isn’t to DU, or TO, or MO.org, etc.!
I’ve NEVER seen that type of stuff on any Blog I read, on a daily basis, and I read about a Dozen, and I certainly haven’t seen it on TV!
What a load of nonsense!
I’ve seen people say they disagree with the President, and I’ve seen people say they want the bill tightened up and some of the Obvious Loopholes fixed (which you and AJ choose to ignore, by the way), but you’re just blowing smoke on the other stuff!
and by the way Terrye, why are you attacking the people on the Left?
They wanted this bill to fail, because they want to Import as many ILLEGALS as possible, because 95% of them become Democratic VOTERS, based upon all the Give-aways and entitlements their promised by the Democrats.
The “Republicans” only want this thing IMPROVED, so we don’t have to let another 40 MILLION in next time!
Seems to me, that’s a bit of a suicidal approach!
That’s like saying to Jihadis, okay, c’mon over, I trust you won’t cut my head off (the Leftist approach by the way!), we can all get along.
Isn’t it better to actually take care of the situation first, before you give away the store?
I guess not… GOTTA HAVE THE BILL NOW, because Terrye’s tired of talking about it!
that should be “why are you NOT attacking the people on the Left…”
And Terrye, by the way, here is the REAL reaons why the Bill “failed”; but because you WON’T READ IT, and YOU HAVEN’T READ THE BILL: you don’t actually have a clue, do you?
http://www2.nationalreview.com/dest/2007/06/12/immigrationwhathappened.pdf
Among othere reasons:
* The complicated legislation, constantly being tweaked by the White House and Deal-Makers, is full of loopholes and problems that deserved amendment and full consideration — consideration denied by the Democrats.
* The White House, certain Democrats and the Deal-Makers blatantly disregarded the legislative process — drafting the bill behind closed doors, skipping the committee process, jamming the bill through the system, limiting the number and type of amendments that could be offered and trying to close down debate on the bill long before appropriate concerns with the bill had been addressed fully.
* The American people rightly refuse to buy what the Deal-Makers are selling — the rewarding of legal status in our country to millions who ignored our laws in exchange for yet another promise to fix our broken immigration system.
Of course, since you have NO INTENTION of actually EDUCATING yourself, on the issues, an prefer instead, to sit over here, and engage in mutual mastabatory whining sessions, with all who agree with your approach; i.e., lets actually IGNORE the actual content of the Bill, and the FACT, and just all “get along”; everyone who disagrees with us, is a “hard right immigration hypochondriac”, I’ve got some land, down in Florida in the Okeefenokee Swamp that’s on sale right now, want to buy it?
Terrye, you are the first one to advise everyone here that you will vote the way you want, read what blogs you want, it is none of anyone else’s business, bla, bla, bla. Now you inject yourself by resp0nding to a post not addressed to you. Practice what you preach.
“the country sucks”? How did you get a slam on elected officials who have ignored the very laws they enacted to “the country sucks”? Oh, that’s right, you use any spin to promote your agenda. Just another Stratusphite, who doesn’t read a blog when it doesn’t match your own view points.
You continue to harp the old rhetoric when it comes to true immigration resolutions. Anyone who doesn’t agree with those of your ilk are “racist”, “hate brown people”, yada yada yada. Yet, you could not tell me what color anyone on this blog are or even their heritage.
And yes, every president has ignored the immigration problem since LBJ. EVERYONE. If you have information disputing that, I am sure you will have no problem providing it, right?
BTW, it seems that you “centerists” make up about 20% of the population. Wow! I never knew that the far left and the far right were such large groups.
R05,
The polls, even Rasmussens, put the supporters of the bill around 33%. That is not too off the mark with Rep-Dem-Indie all around 33%. Some cross overs in the support. But what is clear, the GOPs 33% is useless without the indies giving them about half their support or more.
What I like about you R05 is you are my best weapon against the far right, just like Malkin.
Is There Hope To Mend These Broken Fences?…
When the immigration debate began which now seems like an eternity ago, it appeared to be the general consenus here at “J”’s that calm should prevail and we would wait and see if and when legislation was actually offered for considera…