Mar 27 2007
Where Will The Taleban Go?
I have one gripe with some who see the arrangements with Isamic fundamentalists in Waziristan, Pakistan as bad policy. And that gripe is where can the Taleban live if they move away from fascism? The deals made by Musharraf with tribesmen of the area have been reasonable on their face. The off is to allow the Taleban live the way they wish, but they must stop harboring terrorists and they cannot turn to force to establish followers.
The result of these deals has been fierce fighting between local tribesman and the al Qaeda foreign fighters. As I have been noting here, the death toll on the al Qaeda side is running quite high (approaching 200 last time I checked). This is not an indication of collusion but keeping their word with Musharraf. This problem is similar to the problem with Germans after the Nazis fell. Germans gave birth to that blight against humanity, and the world found it hard to give them a chance to change their ways. The Taleban also can adjust and exist without the violence and coersion. Many fundamentalistic groups do (take the Amish). Granted, most are non-violent, but maybe the experience with al Qaeda can change things.
The point is, the Taleban hosted al Qaeda. If they shed their brutal ways (and this a big, non-negotiable ‘if’) then can we allow them a new lease on life? I don’t know the answer and I don’t know if they can be trusted and I would prefer they do not exist. With that said, the question still stands. Where willl the Taleban go when this is all over? We need to relfect on this since it will be a key part of any end to the conflict.
AJ: you know I’m a “fan”; but I can’t believe you wrote this post!
The entire raison d’etre, of the Taliban, is Jihad!
That’s the very reason they were formed; that’s their sole existance; they were created in the Madrassas of Pakistan, by Pakistani Imams and the Pakistani IS’s, to take the Koran, by the sword if necessary, to the Pashtun peoples of Afghanistan, and unite the entire Pashtun “peoples” under Shria, drive out the Soviets, and eventually, hopefully, start the formation of the worldwide Caliphate.
If Jihad, is removed as a central tenant of the Taliban, they cease to exist, ergo, Jihad, will never cease to be their core fundalmental; or in this case “fascsim”.
There’s no place for them to go! There’s no reason for them to exist!
The ageements they are signing with Musharraf are for one reason, and one reason only; they are typical Islamic “Hudna”; basically, a “ceasfire”, so we can regroup, and come back and kick your ass later.
And with the Islamic practice of Taqiyah alive and well; they can’t be trusted nor are the worth the paper they are written on; it’s all a big game, and a lie, and everyone one involved knows it; it’s just for breathing space for everyone!
Finally, I know you’r trying to make a point, but comparing the Amish, and the Taliban, even in passing, is not a good idea!
I grew up with the Amish, in central Pennsylvania.
The Amish, like all human beings, are NOT perfect; too much inbreeding (over 84 distinct, and rare genetic diseases have been documented in PA Amish populations as a result of centuries of marrying first-cousins, for example; and way too much in-house, covert sexual abuse/incest, as with all major Religious cults); but that said, the Amish have NEVER cut people’s heads off, they don’t advocate taking over the world, they don’t force conversions, they don’t condone violence of any kind, etc., etc.
Dale,
Read slower. I said IF they reject violence (Jihad). And I meant including violent coersion, etc which is outside Jihad. Some brand of non-violent, non-fascists fundamentalism will survive this conflict if we win. That is all I am pointing out. Think about the end game, not the current one.
AJ: Hi, I know you said “IF”; my main point is, that without violence, and Jihad, there is no “Taliban”; it’s like saying you can be a Nazi, without the racial superiority!
Can’t happen, IMHO, though!
AJ: I’ve spent 30 years, thinking about the “end game”!
I wish I could say, I see one!
I don’t!
I’ve lived with them, slept with them, eaten with them, gone to school with them, worked with them, fought with them, nailed a few of their women, been friends with them, been enemies with them; you name it, I’ve done it!
There is only one solution.
An entire paradigm shift in the entire Islamic culture, HAS to take place somehow; or the world, and civilization is in serious trouble!
As I’ve alluded to here, and on other Blogs; “Christianity”, and the Western World, have undergone a 500+ year “evolution”, from 1492, and the Reconquista of Spain (which was THE event, that launched Christianity/Western Civilization into it’s ascendancy), that included, but not limited to: the Reconquista itself; the Reformation, the split between the Church of England & Rome; the Rennaissance, the Enlightenment, the Scientific Revolution, the Industrial Revolution, the Age of Revolution (US/French, up thru Russian); the Age of Reason, the End of Slavery; Civil Rights Movements, Voting Rights movements, etc., etc.!
Except for the unique example of Attaturk, dragging Turkey into the 21st century, technically, post WWI; NO Arab/Islamic country/society has undergone a Single ONE of those events!
NOT ONE!
They are 500+ years behind us, in the evolution of their societies, at a minimum!
Couple that, with the economic impact, of taking six weeks every year, for Ramadan & the Eid, off, to stuff themselves after fasting all day; if you count that lost economic output every year, which it is, back to the founding of Islam; compared to the West over the same period of time, they’ve lost over 180 years of economic productivity over the past millenium and a half, with no way to make it up, and it will continue ever year!
People will, and do argue, that in today’s information age, computers, the internet, cellphones, 24hr Media, etc., that it’s possible for those changes to take place overnight, as opposed to centuries!
Well, I’ve been part of, and observing, for the past 30 years, during the “information age”; and it has NOT gotten better, it has only gotten worse!
Islam has not evolved, it has not decoupled from society as Christianity has in the West, it has not gotten less radical, it has gotten WORSE!
There is only one explanaition: it is the Ideology that is at Fault! Not “us”, not the US, not the Crusades, not the “West’, not “Christianity”; it is Islam that is at fault!
Islam in general, generically, for considering itself the “one true religion”; for demanding coverion of the entire world, for dividing the world into “Muslims & Apostates”, etc., etc.
Islam in particular, for the Salafiyyah, the Qutbiyyah, the Ithna-Asheri Usulis, for Sharia, the Takfir wal Hijra, etc., etc.!
To correct all that AJ; it will require, a fundalmental paradigm shift, within Islam itself!
Christianity arose on the backs of “hydraulic” empires; hydraulic empires only collapse from internal rot and decay. Christianity has proven that to be the case.
Islam arose on the back of a Nomadic empire, Nomadic empires only collapse from external pressure; Islam has to be PUSHED, to be put under tremendous pressue, to change, to transform, to decouple itself from Sharia, and it’s radical Salafiyyah/Qutbiyyah/Wahabiyyah interpretations, or it will not initiate that paradigm shift upon it’s own! It just will not!
That is while, even though President Bush neither understands, nor comphrehends what he has started, he has in fact, undertaken this very necessary first step, for the US, the West, for Christianity, for the World!
That is why I support him, wholeheartedly, despite all the mistakes, all the missteps, all the incompetence!
At a basic level, he probably “gets it”, and is starting us on the path.
The challenge, is that the Left in this country, and Europe, choose to put blinders on, and do NOT GET IT; they’re so naive, politically motivated, stunted, immature, and spineless, they’d rather commit societal suicide, than admit it a required, and necessary step, and that is why I DESPISE them!
That is where we are AJ; whether we can force that paradigmn shift, with/within Islam, before our own suicidal Left, destroys us, is the real question!
R/dale
The Taliban are going to stay right in Pakistan. AJ, you have fallen for the spin that many have attempted to play on this that somehow the local Pakis are ejecting the foreign Taliban but that isn’t the case. This was at the root of it, a squabble over priorities. One group of Taliban wants to get rid of Musharraf’s government and establish an islamic republic. The other group wants to keep the fight against the regime in Afghanistan as the number one priority and establish an islamic republic there. They both agree that the regime in Afghanistan should be toppled, it is a matter of disagreement over which government should be the focus of their efforts first.
This battle in one province in Pakistan isn’t going to reduce the 200,000 fighters the Taliban claim to have ready to fight our forces in Afghanistan. Most of the people we fight in Afghanistan are not “foreign” … they are tribal Pashtuns that move through their tribal lands that straddle the border. To a Pashtun, Kandahar Afghanistan is just as much their territory as Quetta Pakistan is. The Durand Line that was drawn to separate Afghanistan from India (Pakistan was part of India at that time) and is a figment of British imagination to them. Those tribes don’t recognize it and having NATO troops in their tribal territory, notwithstanding on which side of the Durand line they are, is going to result in a fight from them. They don’t regard themselves as Pakis or Afghans, they are Pashtuns. It is closer to the problem the Kurds face with their land being divided between Iran, Turkey, and Iraq after World War I.
From an article on another blog today on the recent Bajur Accord:
These accords are *not* good news for us. They are the Talibanization of Pakistan. It is an attempt to appease the Taliban in their home districts in the hope that they will not bring down the central Paki government. I wouldn’t get my hopes up and Musharraf is scared.