Jun 23 2006
GOP Utter Failure Part III
My worst fears came true with new details just out regarding the terrorist plot in Miami which was thwarted today:
The alleged terrorists five U.S. citizens, a legal immigrant from Haiti and a Haitian national who was in this country illegally were expected to appear in federal court in Miami later Friday.
This is why the House GOP decision to ‘cut and run’ from any immigration reform is not just stupid, it is dangerous. The biggest issue facing us on immigration is not wage pressure, or a tight job market, or draining the welfare coffers, it is national security. We have lived through the immigration pressures for decades (if not centuries). While they can be a challenge, the net result was always a positive for this country. After 9-11 securing our borders from terrorist and bringing the undocumented workers into the open through incentives (so we could easily check on who was not yet documented and a possible risk) helped push the floundering immigration issue to the forefront.
But myopic GOP leaders let fear of immigrants becoming citizens in 10-15 years trump our very real problem today – terrorists. And now we see that there was an illegal alien terrorist here, hiding out. The House GOP has lost all focus and priority, and left us in very grave danger.
My first two posts on the failure of the House GOP to protect our nation are here and here.
Wow, you just read my mind. Now, without any way of separating workers from terrorists, they all just hang out on the fringe. I hope Dennis Hassert enjoys his $2M payday for hypocracy.
I doubt very much if that guy from Haiti crossed the Mexcian border.
That is something else these folks don’t talk about. The border with Mexico is just one way to get in here. The millenium terrorist was caught trying to get in from Canada and this guy came from Haiti. That means a boat. Preoccupation with Mexican immigrants getting legal is making people over look a lot.
But what the hell, they will have their rallies, I mean hearings, and spend most of their time trash talking other Republicans who dared to leave the reservation and after months and months and months maybe they will mosey back to DC and think about the possibility of you know actually doing something. maybe.
People arrive from Haiti all the time. The other issue is that only half the illegals sneek in. Washington Times had an article this week on that subject. 50% cross into the US legally. They just don’t go home.
Still, when someone has a legal status, they are one heck of a lot easier to find and track. An illegal leaves a more difficult to track paper trail. If you are legal, have a legit SSN, job, bank account, drivers licence, credit card … then if someone is engaged in illegal activity, a closer eye can be placed on them.
Yes, A.J. the “border dispute” is not about a wall on the Mexican border. It is about the Clinton and Bush administrations making the 1986 laws work, mostly by whacking those who hire them.
If more raids on companies occur in a meaningful way, then the illegal/border issue will be on its way to being fixed.
AJ, I will ask again:
do you think the new bill would make those who wish to do us harm come out in the open?
do you think all the illegals on welfare, in public housing, getting AFDC, Medicaid, WIC are in the shadows?
do you think the illegals attending our universities are in the shadows?
do you think that having the Senate bill would have made the newest illegal arrested for wanting to blow you to hell come out of the shadows?
are the OTMs paying coyotes upwards of $30,000 to sneak them into the U.S. so they can get a job at 7/11 and be out of the shadows?
Just how would your plan work to make those who don’t want to be found out put into the light of day?
I find the criticism directed to the House for not approving the treasonous Senate bill, quite disturbing.
The fact of the matter is the House reflects the will of the people who are completely fed up with Demsheviks and Country Club Republicans selling our country by the pound (for cheap votes and cheap labour)…
DBOSTAN, no one said anything about approving everything in the Senate bill. There is a lot that should be tossed in conference. However, any bill that fails to reflect economic reality will probably cost more in enforcement than it will save. I guess I’m a country club republican because I took Economics 101.
As for getting people out of the fringes, consider this. If somebody is in the US working to support their family, odds are they don’t want to get blown up. They have an incentive to communicate with police about those who will do the blowing up. Right now, if they come forward, they get deported. So, understandably, many put family commitments first and turn away. Give people a vested interest and their behavior changes. Its the entire basis of market economics.
Ole Jim:
Oh please, I grew up in Oklahoma in the 50’s and 60’s and my grandparents use to go to Mexcio on vacations, it was no big deal. Crossing that border back then was nothing. This problem has been around for years and years, trying to blame it Bush or Clinton for that matter is just silly.
Dbostan:
I find the inability of people like you to show some sanity on the issue to be disturbing as well. Believe it or not, when someone disagrees with you that in and of itself is not enough to qualify for treason, unless you are Stalin.
Terrye,
I’ m not silly, I am sullen.
I grew up in Oklahoma in the 40’s and 50’s. (Remember Henry Bellmon? I worked a lot on that first winnning GOP gubernatorial campaign in Oklahoma.) I also lived in central Texas in the 70’s when the big yellow schoolbus with bars and US Govt tags made its regular trips to take the wetbacks back to McAllen, etc. Mexican illegals were “no big deal” but there was enforcement going on regularly. (Of course, some old-timers in Texas were of Mexican/Spanish descent.)
Enforcement ceased and some say the smouldering Mexican economy went from hopeful, with NAFTA, to absolutely flat with China making most of the manufactured goods sold in the USA. It is incumbent on Mexico to find a way to help fix that problem in Mexico. It was not a USA issue, until they were allowed to SWARM into the USA and were defended from the White House.
The issue of immigration is complex, but the current situation is MOSTLY many years of failing to enforce the laws passed and signed by Reagan in 1986 (by then I was in Bethesda). I justly blame Clinton and Bush for that.
If we had enforced the immigration laws in the 90’s and the start of century 21, we would not be having these rancorous fights among GOP or former GOP and between conservatives and libertarians. We have a whole lot of people here who are no longer the daily problems of the Mexican elite or the Mexican govt.
The cheap labor has been VERY helpful to some employers. It has NOT been a net benefit to the country and according to the flag-waving I saw in May, it WILL NOT be a net benefit to this country.
We just sold our little house in the mountains west of the Shenandoah Valley. The chicken and turkey plants have been importing Mexicans for roughly a decade. I think they drifted in 12-14 years ago. In the past decade, it was pretty obvious they were recruited and guided to these plants.It did not benefit the local economy. And the illegal aliens were not doing “Jobs Americans won’t do.” Local Virginia people lost raises and then jobs from that failiure of GWB to enforce the 1986 immigration laws.
That hackneyed phrase “jobs Americans won’t do,” is gonna cost the GOP big time, if they follow GWB like lemmings.
OleJim,
“The cheap labor has NOT been a net benefit to the country.”
This is a false assertion.
“That hackneyed phrase ‘jobs Americans won’t do,’ is gonna cost the GOP big time.”
“Secure the border first.” is a hackneyed phrase. And the constant immigrant bashing will take the real toll on the GOP.
Ole Jim:
I remember the name.
this issue is complex but I do nothink it is fair to just characterize this as people being greedy or Bush not enformcing laws or whatever.
The laws are contradictory and impssoible to enforce, with states and cities often disagreeing with and ignoring federal regulations.
And it is not just greed. Back in the dust bowl the Hoover and Roosevelt administration shippped hispanics to Mexico so that people like my grandparents could come to California and work the fields. More than half the people they shipped to Mexico were in fact Aemricans, but they were hispanic so no one cared. As soon as they could my grandparents got out of the fields. Within a few years the government created the Bracero program to bring Mexicans back to work the fields because they needed them. In other words for years we encouraged the inflow of agricultural workers not out of greed, but need. The idea that Americans will take to the fields in good times is crazy. The only time Americans show any desire to do that kind of work is if they are starving or if they own the land.
I support a guest worker program because I farmed for years and I know how hard it is to get help.
I also dislike the mischaracterizing of the Senate Bill. On Fox tonight the hardliners were out there blowing off etc and it just pissed me off.
For instance there is a provision in that bill designed to make sure that people can not pay these workers less, it requires they get prevailing wage. People were complaining about Mexicans working too cheap. How did Hastert and the gang explain it? Well the bill requires we pay illegals more than legals. That is dishonest.
Now I don’t care if they even keep that in the bill. They can take that to conference and strip it out along with the social security stuff as part of a compromise, I don’t have a problem with that. I have a problem with them using it as an excuse to do nothing while they refuse to even take it to conference at all.
BTW, blaming Bush for turkey farms and hog operations is too much. As I said I farmed and people want cheap food. That is what they want. Americans do not line up to do this work. I have a friend who runs one of those places and the only people he can find locally to do that work are the Amish kids.
If Americans would do those jobs it would be necessary to guide anyone anywhere.
We have a low unemployment rate and there are a lot of folks out there who just flat refuse to do that kind of work. You are dreaming if you think otherwise.
Terrye,
If the illegals don’t do the jobs that need doing (producing food) ,basic economics says the price will go up until people DO want to do that work. Those of us not raising food will then pay more. But we will pay less in taxes and less at the hospitals, etc, etc. In the end it will balance out, no doubt.
I blame Bush for failing to enforce immigration laws. There have not been transfers back to the Rio Grande for years. I don’t blame Bush for turkey farms, that is a strange reading of my remarks.
There is a consensus that we should shore up the borders and improve our security. Almost everyone agrees on that.
The only hitch: GWB is holding security hostage to his desire of a guest worker program. The real blame lies there, not with the House leadership, no matter how corrupt Congress is. The Senate is aiding and abetting this foolishness.
I do not see this as an immigration issue. Haitians are not usually the problem… aside from whatever Haitian drug gangs and such may be out there.
What is the problem is extremist groups… which, for the sake of “free speech” we have been extremely liberal. Considering that the kinds of groups we have allowed to exist here which are absolutely in a state of declared war against the government… are all extreme right groups… I would think this “liberality” is yet again fascism under the guise of liberalism.
Effectively, it is legal within the United States to openly preach violence against United States citizens and others in the world. Effectively, it is even legal to belong to an organization that has declared it self at war with the government and the people.
This kind of rhetoric has long been acceptable among the Neo-Nazis and has led to many events of terrorism within our borders — most famously, the Oklahoma federal bombing.
I am extremely thankful we are, at least, starting to get on the ball on this issue. I was also very heartened to see Britain successfully charge and prosecute some of their venomous traitors who were calling for blood of Britons.
Ole Jim:
If that were true these people would not be working here in the first place, because Americans would be doing the jobs.
This is exactly the argument that was made by the Know Nothings in the 1850’s to stop the Irish coming, but Lincoln rant them out of the Republican party. Too bad he is not here today.
It is more likely that American farms would go out of business and we would just ship food in along with the oil.
Terrye,
You are confused about part of the story. Illegals flock here for better money than they get at home. If it were not easy, if they could not get the job, if they got paid even less, they would not be here.
If those food processors or agribusiness folks paid more, they would get workers (providing it was enough above welfare).
The phrase, “jobs Americans will not do,” is relative. Make the pay good enough and Americans will do it.
In some areas the food processing plants laid off Americans and paid cheaper Mexicans. That is meaningful way to improve profits. BUT the rest of the economy takes up the slack for various things, such as health care for the illegals, etc.
Ole jim:
I was a farmer for years and I had to buy a big baler because I could not hire a hay crew, no one wanted to pick up hay anymore and when I coud find someone I paid them more to put up the hay than the hay was worth. So I bought a big round baler.
This is simple economics. In a town near me here in Indiana there is a meat packing plant, about one third of the workers are Mexicans. They were not brought in, but they came because there were jobs that were not being filled by the locals, it is a small town. You shut down that plant and the two thirds who are American will lose their jobs.
People in this country do not want to go back to the times when oranges at Christmas were a luxury, they do not want to spend $4 for a head of lettuce and they do not want to see their food bills doubled. They bitch about the price of food as it is.
I hear people complain that all the jobs went to Mexico and then I hear people complain that all the Mexicans come up here for jobs, which is it? There are big farms in Mexico and it would be a lot easier to just move those plants across the border and if Americans had the choice of high food prices or that, which do you think they would chose?
We have an unemplyment rate of 4.6% in this country and I know people right here where I live who would rather sit on their ass than drive to Washington Indiana and work in that meat packing plant. You can say that if we just make all the Mexicans go away then voila Americans will do the work, but it has never been like that. Only in the great Depression were Americans prepared to work the fields in California.
It burns my hide that those of you who advocate the Shamnesty Bill cannot accept that those of us who don’t draw a line between legal and illegal.
Terrye, you said you bought a round baler. So with one piece of machinery you eliminated the need for illegal (or legal) farm labor. Your argument is the same at the slave owners in 1861; that if we no longer have slaves, the cotton farms will all disappear. I live in an area with a lot of cotton farms. Not one slave in the fields. Not one illegal in the fields. But lots of machinery. Same with the tomatoe industry, the strawberry industry, the corn industry. Farm workers replaced by machinery.
The argument is that lettuce will go to $4.00 a head. Just another talking point by talking heads that know little about the market and it’s ability to adjust. That is the beauty of free market enterprise. It will adjust, just as the cotton industry did, to the changes in the market. $4.00? That is the cost of one movie rental. Less than the cost of one meal at McDonald’s. Less than the cost of two Slurpies at 7/11 for your kids. Less than the cost of a six-pack of Coke.
With the advent of the super discount retailers, we have become programed to expect lower and lower cost for the goods we purchase. We have become a nation of the “I want’s” from a nation of the “I need’s.” Why? So we can buy our kids Nintendos, X-Boxes, TV’s in all their rooms, cell phones to 10 year olds, drive a newer car more frequently than our parents did and change the contents of our closets every season, microwave foods so we don’t have to cook? Just $100.00 invested in a retirement plan from the time you are 21 to retirement age will net you $1,000,000.00. But how many are willing to do that?
Some of you like to use the immigration of the past. But look at the immgrants that came from Europe. They were stone masons, carpenters, brick layers. They were artisans in their fields. Craftsmen. And the Irish (near and dear to my heart) did not come here and demand that we speak their language, change our laws to suit them, teach their children in Gaelic. They changed their ways to become Americans. They did not receive welfare and the Irish government did not tell them how to act once they got here. And like Mexico, when the Irish came the Brits were glad to get rid of them so that the English could maintain controll over Irish land.
Rich uses the talking point that if they come forward now, they are deported. How so? Are the illegals attending our universities being deported? Are the illegally applying for welfare being deported? Are the illegals who apply for driver’s licenses being deported? The answer is a flat “NO”.
“they do the jobs Americans won’t do”. Another talking point. They do the jobs Americans won’t do at the wage. Pay a higher wage where it is better to do the job than to be on welfare and American’s will do them. Make receiving welfare for only those who really need it and they will do the jobs.
Bottom line: the Republicans see the illegals as cheap labor for higher profits, the Democrats see the illegals as future voters. So the Democrats would get the power they want to retake, the businesses would reap higher profits for their owners and stock holders and the American average Joe Blow will get hosed by having to cover the cost of the social services the illegals will absorb.
Retiree05,
Your hide can burn all you want. Your side left this nation unprotected against terrorists because of an irrational fear immigrants will become US citizens in 10-15 years from now.
You made your bed on your side. Stop whining about your decisions and how completely foolish they were. Leaving us unprotected out of fear of some new citizens in 2016 was the worst political decision I have ever witnessed since Neville Chamberlin.
No one told the far right to jump the shark. They did it all on their own and now have the same credibility on national security as Michael Moore and the far left.
You list this as a GOP failure?
“The alleged terrorists five U.S. citizens, a legal immigrant from Haiti and a Haitian national who was in this country illegally ”
If I understand your position,, and I think you have made it clear, we would go ahead and pass the Senate bill, and make this Haitian national officially a ‘guest worker’ give him a green card and put him on a ‘ path to citizenship’
And that would be SUCCESS??????????????
but Lincoln rant them out of the Republican party.
But unfortunately it is Pres. Bush that is outside the Republican party on this issue? Would you have him leave the party?